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Old March 9 2013, 03:23 PM   #121
BillJ
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Re: Friction at DC

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
Let's turn this on its head for a minute; let's boycott Chris Sprouse for his intolerance of other people's views. That man should never get work again. Right?

That does bring up an interesting point, though. How does DC really feel about Sprouse doing this? Sprouse just showed himself to be unreliable and willing to leave his publisher in a lurch based on whim. Is this someone you give more work to? Can you depend on them? Sprouse has been highly unprofessional here. If he didn't want to work with Card in the future, then that's fine; but to back out on your commitment to drawing an inoffensive story? I wouldn't hire Sprouse again.
DC probably should've never hired Card to begin with, at least not for one of its flagship characters. But I'll agree that what Sprouse did was highly unprofessional and he should suffer for it as well.
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Old March 9 2013, 03:35 PM   #122
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Re: Friction at DC

BillJ wrote: View Post
DC probably should've never hired Card to begin with
Well, they had no problem hiring Frank Miller to write Batman despite his fascist views.
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Old March 9 2013, 03:36 PM   #123
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Re: Friction at DC

DalekJim wrote: View Post
It's clear you have no real desire for debate or points to bring to the table, so there seems little point.
I had no interest in engaging with you in the first place, your posts across this thread suggest your grasp on logic is as shaky as your grasp on the English language.

I was addressing someone else when you launched in with a totally unfounded assumption on my political stances, that bore little relationship to the point I made, and then have the nerve to wonder why I am not taking you seriously.

As I said, hilarious.
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Old March 9 2013, 03:46 PM   #124
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Re: Friction at DC

DalekJim wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
DC probably should've never hired Card to begin with
Well, they had no problem hiring Frank Miller to write Batman despite his fascist views.
Different day, my friend.

The world's changing. We're becoming more tolerant of people different than ourselves and less tolerant of people who use race, religion and sexual orientation as tools to drive division among us.
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Old March 9 2013, 04:22 PM   #125
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Re: Friction at DC

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
Let's turn this on its head for a minute; let's boycott Chris Sprouse for his intolerance of other people's views. That man should never get work again. Right?
If you want to try, go ahead. However, I don't think you'll get much support. It's also a weak conservative attack, "Oh, you must be intolerant of ideas if you don't tolerate intolerant people."

But, anyway...


That does bring up an interesting point, though. How does DC really feel about Sprouse doing this? Sprouse just showed himself to be unreliable and willing to leave his publisher in a lurch based on whim. Is this someone you give more work to? Can you depend on them? Sprouse has been highly unprofessional here. If he didn't want to work with Card in the future, then that's fine; but to back out on your commitment to drawing an inoffensive story? I wouldn't hire Sprouse again.
It's an interesting question. I bet they will continue to hire him. He's a very popular artist, he's work attracts an audience, and he sells books. Perhaps if he regularly did this, but, if not then it would be rather a stupid business decision, don't you think? Unprofessional in THIS instance or not, he still makes the company money. They are going to continue to work with him.

I guess you'll have to not buy his books.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Pingfah wrote: View Post
So you can boycott a product, that's fine and dandy. You can also tell anyone in the world you wish that you are doing so and why, except the company that actually produces the product, because that would be sickening...
No, unlike you I believe in free speech so I think people can, and should, say what they like.
Freedom of speech! Except for those using it to protest!


Honesty is a virtue I treasure. The problem comes when people are hypocrites about it and demand that people they disagree with on legal definitions should be unable to produce art. To me that is offensive.
1. For some it's not about legal definition. It literally is about Freedom. Because it has nothing to do with you personally, you don't see that.

2. Card is free to continue to produce his art. He's a writer. He doesn't need anyone to hire him. He can write, anytime, anywhere he wants. Probably most of his money comes from his novels, not the occasional comic he does. So, he's not being stopped from writing. "Oh, but, he's being stopped from making a living." No, he's being stopped from working at DC. He can continue to write and sell his novels.


Personally I'm not too invested in Orson Scott Card's comic book career but he did write Ender's Game which is a really good book and a very significant sci-fi novel. Should that now be boycotted due to the author's views? Should it be banned from being sold? I find that ideology ludicrous.
Lovely straw man, but no one is talking about banning it. That's clearly against the First Amendment. If a store wants to sell it they are free to do so. If a store DOESN'T want to sell it, they are free to do so. Just as people are free to protest the selling of the book or not.


The concept of offence is so distorted, fetishised and warped in our culture. People feel they have the right not to be offended and that those who cause offence should be shunned. I couldn't disagree more.
The concept of Freedom of Speech is so distorted, that people think they are protected that they should be able to say anything and then scream "FREEDOM!1!" and not be called out.

The First Amendment protects us from the Government. It shouldn't protect us from each other.

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post


Better in your opinion. Funny how you cannot even consider that the OSC side may sincerely believe the same thing.
I am SURE they think they are trying to make the world a better place. So? What's your point? That you think I'm so closed minded or something? OSC believes in certain things that make the world a better place. A lot of bigots do.



You can say whatever you want, but you flee from the point: why are you incapable of exercising free will and buying something else? Or are you a person seeking absolute thought and action control over any and all entities? Smells like the latter.
I don't flee from it. I know I can. I know I have free will to buy another book. Just like I have free will to join a protest. And as far as absolute thought and action control? Your tin hat is showing.

I love how the ONLY way to express free will in your mind is to NEVER join a group doing something you believe in.


See the point about "Funny how you cannot even consider that the OSC side may sincerely believe the same thing" regarding the "better world" concept. You are so hostile and one-sided in your view, that the other side is "the wrong side" in this matter.
Hey, if you want to come out and say gay men and women shouldn't be allowed to marry, just say it. You don't have to hide it in obfuscation.



Yes, because polls are really capturing the true opinion of half of 300+ million individuals, from the child to the elderly. As Mitt Romney learned somewhere around summer of last year, some polling data is not an accurate measure of real world opinion or action.
It's hard living in your echo chamber. Actually, most polls did show Obama leading... but, that's a little OT.

The reality is: gay marriage has consistently shown more and more approval. It's getting approved in more and more states. I could bring you a flash light for your echo chamber if you like.



I didn't get my panties in a twist when the "Million" Moms tried to protest JC Penny's hiring of Ellen.
But you ARE getting your panties in a bunch over OSC's business relationship with DC.
FREEDOM!1!


Do YOU get upset with the Million Moms? Are YOU consistent in your thinking?
Nice try, but not working, as you remain the one hostile and one-sided here.
Oh, so you're not going to answer the question about whether or not you are consistent in your thinking. Rather, turn it into an attack. Nice. Transparent. But... nice tactic.
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Last edited by Professor Zoom; March 9 2013 at 04:33 PM.
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Old March 9 2013, 04:29 PM   #126
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Re: Friction at DC

DalekJim wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
DC probably should've never hired Card to begin with
Well, they had no problem hiring Frank Miller to write Batman despite his fascist views.
Frank Miller is not a fascist.
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Old March 9 2013, 04:31 PM   #127
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Re: Friction at DC

Sprouse said the controversy was distracting him in his work being a bit coy about his views. Doesn't make it less unprofessional if you feel that way about him but just saying he hasn't truly declared a position on the topic (at least in the linked article).


BillJ wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
DC probably should've never hired Card to begin with
Well, they had no problem hiring Frank Miller to write Batman despite his fascist views.
Different day, my friend.

The world's changing. We're becoming more tolerant of people different than ourselves and less tolerant of people who use race, religion and sexual orientation as tools to drive division among us.
The other thing is that the internet extends both the lifespan and accessibility to things in people's personal life. Something that might have only been known to the hardcore is out there for all. A fleeting statement in passing can now live indefinitely. Look at how many people fired for silly Facebook/Twitter things that no one had to see in the first place if they weren't being nosy about that person (and those are just the ones that have been posted).
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Old March 9 2013, 04:57 PM   #128
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Re: Friction at DC

This thread is getting entirely too personal and drifting off into areas better suited for different forums or boards. Everyone please take a deep breath and back off, for your own benefit.
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Old March 9 2013, 05:01 PM   #129
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Re: Friction at DC

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
Let's turn this on its head for a minute; let's boycott Chris Sprouse for his intolerance of other people's views. That man should never get work again. Right?

That does bring up an interesting point, though. How does DC really feel about Sprouse doing this? Sprouse just showed himself to be unreliable and willing to leave his publisher in a lurch based on whim. Is this someone you give more work to? Can you depend on them? Sprouse has been highly unprofessional here. If he didn't want to work with Card in the future, then that's fine; but to back out on your commitment to drawing an inoffensive story? I wouldn't hire Sprouse again.
Whereas I thought Sprouse was the person who came out looking best in this situation. He gave a very diplomatic statement that didn't burn bridges with anyone and made it clear that the chatter was distracting and he had to step away.

Do I think this burns his bridge with DC? Absolutely not. For one thing, DC values Sprouse far more than they value Card. Yes, DC says they're going to look for a new artist, but I can't actually see them looking very hard. Sprouse's decision very clearly gave DC the excuse to pay Card his kill fee and pull the plug on the story.

Plus it meant that retailers who had publicly said they weren't going to carry the first print issue with Card's story because they didn't want to financially support Card can now, in good conscience, order it. In that sense, Sprouse saved the book and did DC a favor. The work of the other artists and writers in the book now aren't being damaged by the Card blowback.

It was the other artists issue that really had me on the fence about Adventures of Superman #1. It's okay for me to not buy Orson Scott Card's novels; the only person affected by that is Card as my withholding purchase means he's one less copy toward earning out his advance -- and lower sales on his books mean his publishers will offer him lower advances in the future because Card's work doesn't sell. But Card wasn't the only creator in Adventures of Superman #1. I wanted to support Sprouse and Chris Samnee, but I didn't want to support Card. Did my love of the character and Sprouse and Samnee outweigh my detestment of Card? I hadn't sorted out that calculus yet. Now I don't have to solve the problem; Chris Sprouse solved it for me.
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Old March 9 2013, 05:19 PM   #130
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Re: Friction at DC

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
DC probably should've never hired Card to begin with
Well, they had no problem hiring Frank Miller to write Batman despite his fascist views.
Frank Miller is not a fascist.
Yes he is.

He is also a wife beater and alcoholic.
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Old March 9 2013, 05:49 PM   #131
Neroon
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Re: Friction at DC

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post

Well, they had no problem hiring Frank Miller to write Batman despite his fascist views.
Frank Miller is not a fascist.
Yes he is.

He is also a wife beater and alcoholic.
A subject not germane to this thread or forum, so please drop it, now.
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Old March 9 2013, 05:56 PM   #132
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Re: Friction at DC

wha?
All I know about Miller's politics is the way he lambasted Reagan and decried the perceived corruption of government to an almost paranoid level in DKR. What makes him a fascist?
Which leads to a key issue here: artists express themselves through their art. There are few artists (though some, true - mainly a few actors) whose public stances on issues have so offended me that I can no longer enjoy their craft. F'rinstance, I'm a huge Harry Belafonte fan. I think he's a great entertainer and a lovely man. He's also a real humanitarian. Politically, I think he's an absolute nutjob. I still love his singing and performances, though, and would be horrified if he were prevented from performing.

Back to my first question, though, I really don't know what this is about: how is Miller a fascist?
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Old March 9 2013, 06:15 PM   #133
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Re: Friction at DC

Well, a mod has tried their best to stop this discussion but a quick Google search for his political views should show you. He's pretty infamous for it.

The Dark Knight Returns is still my favourite Batman comic though .
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Old March 9 2013, 06:29 PM   #134
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Re: Friction at DC

There is absolutely no proof, not a single bit of it, that would label Frank Miller a fascist. There's a lot of commentary and op-ed crap and opinions that slam him that way, but there is no proof. He has never expressed fascist opinions or beliefs of any sort.

Certain elements think he's a fascist just because, for example, he dared to criticize the Occupy movement, but that's hardly conclusive.
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Old March 9 2013, 06:31 PM   #135
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Re: Friction at DC

Last chance, folks. Let's please return to the topic of the thread and not continue this irrelevant sidebar



Neroon wrote: View Post
Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

Frank Miller is not a fascist.
Yes he is.

He is also a wife beater and alcoholic.
A subject not germane to this thread or forum, so please drop it, now.
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