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Old March 5 2013, 04:57 PM   #16
Christopher
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Jim Gamma wrote: View Post
^Except that they could have swung it round and said "This means we need to get home even more, to help with the war effort". At least, until the war actually ended.
But then their show would've been driven by events on a different show that wasn't on the same network, and that's not a desirable thing. Berman and the various Trek showrunners preferred to keep their projects mostly independent of each other, which was why the Dominion War was barely acknowledged in the TNG movies. It even went so far as DS9 never using a Sovereign-class ship and rarely using an Intrepid (with the exception of "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," where it was cheaper to shoot on the Voyager sets than to build sets for a whole new starship). True, the Maquis storylines in TNG and DS9 were meant to set up VGR (and Gul Evek appeared in all the Maquis episodes up through "Caretaker"), but after that, they all went pretty much their own ways with only infrequent crossover elements.
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Old March 7 2013, 08:28 AM   #17
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

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Also, I have a hard time forgiving Janeway for never bothering to look for any of the other refugees abducted by the Caretaker. They should've tracked them all down and banded together, traveling in a caravan for mutual support and protection. Maybe they could've found the Equinox earlier and spared them from five years of hell.
Based on what?
The info they received about the Caretaker taking others, came from the Ocampa. People who lived underground and didn't understand who, what or where the others went after the Caretaker was done with them. Janeway didn't know that there could be others until nearly 4 or 5 years later, in "Voyager Conspiracy" As vast as space is, it would be a waste of time and resources looking for people you aren't sure are out there. It was a billion to one chance they found the Equinox.
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Old March 7 2013, 09:04 AM   #18
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Neelix said there was an epidemic of alien ships dragged here into the Delta Quadrant, and all the Ocampa said was that every time after some alien species started dying of Caretaker rape, that their city was used as a hospice.

B'Elanna had been raped and murdered.

Explain to me why she wasn't going on a killing spree till she had de-throated every last one of Caretakers pets?

It's the rules of the sociopath.

Klingons ain't socipaths by nature?

If someone is too tough to take out, you kill their family and then run away.

Which is the plot to almost every Charles Bronson movie.
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Old March 9 2013, 03:45 AM   #19
Lance
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

I agree with the thoughts expressed earlier, that Janeway (and the other Starfleet guys) probably knew. I suspect the reason Chakotay exhibits no knowledge of the Dominion has got more to do with him resigning his commission before Starfleet had first contact with the Jem'Hadar, so maybe he never even heard about the destruction of the Odyssey. As a "private citizen" he likely lost most (if not all) of his Starfleet links, and he was effectively fighting his own skirmishes as a Maquis, so might have been "out of the loop" so to speak. Still no reason why Janeway couldn't have filled him in when she made him her XO, but hey-ho.
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Old March 9 2013, 07:21 AM   #20
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Well it all depends on when Eddington took over the Maquis, if he was their absolute leader from the beginning and did only move his base of operations from Earth to Bajor as of DS9 season 3, rather than he just stumbled into the job after Cal Hudson bought the farm.

Not only would Eddington, as head of DS9 Security, have known about the Dominion, but if he was half the Statesman he thought of himself as, Mike would have opened feelers to the Dominion for an alliance on some level to contend with the Cardassians. If Eddington went himself to the homeworld of the Founders, it all would have been hush hush, but if he farmed out the responsibility to some thug lieutenant, word amongst the Maquis would have spread about a potential new white knight ally that was going to save everyone. In fact, it was probably this brief alliance and it's catastrophic failure behind the scenes in season 3 ds9 which is why the Dominion reacted so damn strongly when it became their job to answer the Maquis question.

My point is.

My obvious point is... Chakotay could have told Kathryn allllllllllllllllllllllllllll about the Dominion.
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Old March 9 2013, 10:15 AM   #21
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Sometimes I wonder if Chakotay could even tie his shoelaces in the morning.

In fact, he'd probably sit there looking at them... and then start telling a story, about how "My people say about Spirit Guides... that they guide us forward on the pathway of life... I need my shoes to walk that pathway, so it seems clear that my Spirit Guide will come and tie my shoelaces for me". And then he'd spend the rest of the day walking around with his shoelaces untied.

(I know, I know... Starfleet shoes don't have laces. But let's not spoil the punch-line, hey? )
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Old March 9 2013, 02:16 PM   #22
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Well it all depends on when Eddington took over the Maquis, if he was their absolute leader from the beginning and did only move his base of operations from Earth to Bajor as of DS9 season 3, rather than he just stumbled into the job after Cal Hudson bought the farm.

Not only would Eddington, as head of DS9 Security, have known about the Dominion, but if he was half the Statesman he thought of himself as, Mike would have opened feelers to the Dominion for an alliance on some level to contend with the Cardassians. If Eddington went himself to the homeworld of the Founders, it all would have been hush hush, but if he farmed out the responsibility to some thug lieutenant, word amongst the Maquis would have spread about a potential new white knight ally that was going to save everyone. In fact, it was probably this brief alliance and it's catastrophic failure behind the scenes in season 3 ds9 which is why the Dominion reacted so damn strongly when it became their job to answer the Maquis question.

My point is.

My obvious point is... Chakotay could have told Kathryn allllllllllllllllllllllllllll about the Maquis.
My assumption about that Maquis was there was no absolute "leader", but simply leaders of certain cells (Macias, Cal, Eddington). It makes a lot more sense to have a decentralized organization, when you've got two major powers hunting you.

Whether Eddington was always working with the Maquis or simply decided to defect for whatever reason at some point, we can only speculate.

There's absolutely no evidence Eddington attempted some sort of "alliance" with the Dominion. That seems rather far-fetched to me for a number of reasons.
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Old March 9 2013, 06:18 PM   #23
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Imagine the shit storm if the Romulans chose to recognize the Maquis?

Made a big deal about finally finding human being "evolved" enough to have a conversation with.

How likely is it that Dukat would make a secret alliance with the Dominion during his one man war on the Klingons? His one man war was nice, but just by acceding to a few concessions, his new allies promised to destroy all his enemies and give him the keys to the homeworld... "In theory".

How was Dukat any more eminent than Eddington to make a deal with such scope?
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Old March 20 2013, 07:58 AM   #24
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Imagine the shit storm if the Romulans chose to recognize the Maquis?

How was Dukat any more eminent than Eddington to make a deal with such scope?
Well, for starters, Dukat had (at least at one point) far more authority and influence within the Cardassian Union than Eddington did in the Federation.

We never really learned the Cardassian governments's reaction to Dukat's private war. It's possible his exploits made him something of a hero among the public, which might have earned him some credibility when he promised the people that the Dominion would make them strong again.

Regardless, however, I got the impression that at least some portion of the government was aware of the impending takeover, if only for the fact that there was absolutely no resistance whatsoever to what would've otherwise been seen as an invasion.

My guess is Dukat was some sort of broker or mediator.
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Old March 20 2013, 09:10 AM   #25
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Cardassia at the time was being led by a Civilian Government for the first time in centuries.

They had just been sacked by the Klingons, which didn't sit well with anyone.

Maybe the civilian government wanted to give up, or maybe Dukat forced them out, but he had the military on his side and after the deal was finalized he was given not just Cardassia to Rule but the entire Alpha Quadrant to govern any way he chose once Dominion Victory had been acomplished.

A broker is a middleman.

Dukat was on top before he fell.
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Old March 22 2013, 10:26 PM   #26
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Would Janeway have known that Picard and crew were shuttled to System J-25 in the Delta Quadrant, courtesy of Q? I cannot believe Voyager and the rest of the fleet wouldn't have known that.
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Old March 22 2013, 10:43 PM   #27
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

If you're asking whether they knew in advance that Borg territory was in the Delta Quadrant, there's no evidence that they didn't. Of course, saying that a territory is "in the Delta Quadrant" is tantamount to saying that a city is "in the Western Hemisphere" -- it doesn't really narrow it down that specifically. The DQ is vast and Voyager only carved a very narrow hairline through it, so even with the knowledge that the Borg were somewhere in the quadrant, they couldn't have known for a fact that their course would impinge upon Borg territory until it actually happened.
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Old March 22 2013, 11:58 PM   #28
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

J-25 was only 2 years away from Federation space. Q, merely took them to a cube, not Borg Space.

Now if you want to talk about TNG Descent? That's where it starts to get sketchy about what determines Borg Space and where it is.
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Old March 23 2013, 12:09 AM   #29
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

I don't think they really knew anything until "Message in a Bottle" and really the one crew member that had issues with the Maquis being wiped out was B'ELanna.
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Old March 23 2013, 12:42 AM   #30
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Re: How much did Voyager know of the Dominion as of "Caretaker"?

Then why were they training Kes to kill Dominion fighters?

Remember that episode where Worf goes on holiday and all his hats are passed around to the rest of the command staff and Bashir moaning about all the secrets he's not allowed to talk about because he's the intelligence officer?

O'BRIEN: How's the Intelligence business?
BASHIR: Oh, I can't talk about it. All I can do is read these fascinating reports and analyses, and analyses of analyses, and then keep it all to myself. Because no one else has a need to know. So I have to walk around this station feeling like I, er. You don't really care, do you?
I assume, on Voyager, that that position is Tuvoks.

It's Tuvoks job to tell the Captain what she needs to know, and to save her the bother of retaining what she doesn't need to know.

If you say too many words to Janeway she can't understand or agree with, she snaps. Sometimes it's a hissy fit, and sometimes she locks herself in her room for three months to rock back and forth, back and forth.

Tuvok has seen it before and he'll see it again

Vulcan bigotry however doesn't see Kathryn as unstable, it just views Janeway as typically and ordinarily unstable by the low standards they account all Human beings within.
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