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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 4 2013, 03:56 PM   #16
The Librarian
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Re: Data and killing

Data had every right to kill Fajo, both to remove him as a threat to himself and others and because as a Starfleet officer he had a duty to escape. The fact that, in that particular moment, he was not an immediate threat is irrelevant, because at any moment members of Fajo's crew could arrive to try to capture him again. Once that happened Fajo would inevitably increase his security precautions, making escape even more difficult. Data had no reason to believe outside help would ever arrive and so he had to act immediately.
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Old March 5 2013, 02:21 AM   #17
Tiberius
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Re: Data and killing

The Librarian wrote: View Post
Data had every right to kill Fajo, both to remove him as a threat to himself...
Data was armed and Fajo was not. Data was not under threat. All Data has to do is put Fajo in the escape pod and seal it shut. Fajo won't be able to do anything from inside there if Data disables its controls.

...and others and because as a Starfleet officer he had a duty to escape.
And killing Fajo was not an essential part of that. Data's escape did not depend on Fajo's death.

The fact that, in that particular moment, he was not an immediate threat is irrelevant, because at any moment members of Fajo's crew could arrive to try to capture him again.
Data is armed. Also, he could easily knock a few heads together. There's no reason the crew was equipped with those anti-android devices like Fajo was. Data could probably take over the ship single handedly.

Once that happened Fajo would inevitably increase his security precautions, making escape even more difficult. Data had no reason to believe outside help would ever arrive and so he had to act immediately.
This is assuming that Fajo would succeed, which I think is very unlikely.
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Old March 5 2013, 04:34 AM   #18
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Data and killing

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Data firing at Fajo was a terrible decision. Fajo was unarmed and in no position to threaten Data. Data should have been courtmartialled.
By no stretch of the imagination was Fajo 'Unarmed'. He wasn't holding a weapon at that very moment, but the power he had over Data and his own crew is a form of armament.

He had no other means to harm or coerce Fajo available to him at the time. Also, since Fajo had all the access codes and nobody else would dare disobey him, no other means to escape. His options were literally, kill him or surrender to him, arming him in the process.

And Fajo had unlawfully imprisoned, enslaved, and declared war on Fajo.

Now, had Data known that the Enterprise had found him, then you would be correct, but he had no way to know that.
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Old March 5 2013, 07:56 AM   #19
Mojochi
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Re: Data and killing

Tiberius wrote:
Data firing at Fajo was a terrible decision. Fajo was unarmed and in no position to threaten Data. Data should have been courtmartialled.
Ahh... The Fajo debate reignites. The man had a 24th century starship at his disposal, & declared that the only way to stop him was to kill him, surrender, or face the consequence of him killing anyone in his way in order to get what he wanted.

Knowing Data as an exceedingly well reasoned individual, we can assume he weighed carefully his options & actions, and made the right choice, for the circumstance. Fajo's mistake was to assume Data can't grow beyond his programming, which we all know is certainly not the case

Riker held onto a secret of mutiny & conspiracy to violate a peace treaty for decades, & wasn't court-martialed. Worf murdered Duras & only got a reprimand

Data was acting in the defense of himself & others while abducted, and was spared the actual consequence of having to kill the guy. Plus, as he may have considered his actions being of a personal nature & not as a Starfleet officer, when Riker asked him about the disruptor discharge, his response of "Perhaps something happened during transport" was a clear cut dose of "mind your own business"
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Old March 5 2013, 11:21 AM   #20
Tiberius
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Re: Data and killing

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Ahh... The Fajo debate reignites. The man had a 24th century starship at his disposal, & declared that the only way to stop him was to kill him, surrender, or face the consequence of him killing anyone in his way in order to get what he wanted.
And you believe him?

Knowing Data as an exceedingly well reasoned individual, we can assume he weighed carefully his options & actions, and made the right choice, for the circumstance. Fajo's mistake was to assume Data can't grow beyond his programming, which we all know is certainly not the case
In other words, Data did it, Data always makes the best choices, therefore what Data did was right.

But, it wasn't Data, it was the writer of the episode. The writer of the episode dropped the ball.

Data was acting in the defense of himself & others while abducted, and was spared the actual consequence of having to kill the guy. Plus, as he may have considered his actions being of a personal nature & not as a Starfleet officer, when Riker asked him about the disruptor discharge, his response of "Perhaps something happened during transport" was a clear cut dose of "mind your own business"
Data was acting in defense? Fajo was disarmed and helpless. He was no threat to anyone.

And Data avoiding the issue the way he did with Riker is so far out of character it isn't funny.
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Old March 5 2013, 11:35 AM   #21
Tiberius
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Re: Data and killing

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Data firing at Fajo was a terrible decision. Fajo was unarmed and in no position to threaten Data. Data should have been courtmartialled.
By no stretch of the imagination was Fajo 'Unarmed'. He wasn't holding a weapon at that very moment, but the power he had over Data and his own crew is a form of armament.
You'll have a hard time convincing anyone that this "power" justified Fajo's death.

He had no other means to harm or coerce Fajo available to him at the time. Also, since Fajo had all the access codes and nobody else would dare disobey him, no other means to escape. His options were literally, kill him or surrender to him, arming him in the process.
First of all, Data first insisted that Fajo turn himself over to the authorities. Hardly the act of someone who thinks that an execution is the only possible option.

Secondly, Data had the means of incapacitating Fajo. He had lots of options. Force him into the escape pod that was sitting right there. Disable the escape pod's computer and seal it shut. Then Data can easily force the crew to take him somewhere. Given Data's skill with computers, he would be able to overcome any lock outs Fajo had. Even if he couldn't, Fajo couldn't have EVERYTHING locked out. What's he going to do? Input his security code every time one of his crew wants to make a course change, or open a channel to a nearby vessel?

By the way, if Riker can figure out how to send a secret message from a Ferengi ship, Data can figure out a way to send a message from Fajo's ship.

And Data was limited limited to execution or surrender. He could stay at a stalemate. it;s not like Data needs to sleep or eat or go to the toilet or anything. he can stay there with Fajo at gunpoint until Fajo finally cracks.

And Fajo had unlawfully imprisoned, enslaved, and declared war on Fajo.
I assume you meant decalred war on Data.

Now, had Data known that the Enterprise had found him, then you would be correct, but he had no way to know that.
Do you really think Starfleet doesn't train its officers on how to escape captivity?
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Old March 5 2013, 01:18 PM   #22
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Re: Data and killing

I have no problem with the way the episode played out with Fajo seemingly talking Data into killing him. I just thought that the "something happened during transport" line was so out of character and eyeroll worthy. I feel that Data could have worded that a lot better than an outright lie. He could have gone with several things with the most believable reason being "I was currently engaged in a fucking escape attempt and shit got real."
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Old March 5 2013, 01:28 PM   #23
The Librarian
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Re: Data and killing

How can Data force Fajo to do anything? His only option is to shoot him, and Fajo has just declared he doesn't believe Data can do it. Not won't do it - physically can't because of his programming. Meanwhile, Fajo has said that he'll start killing people if Data doesn't cooperate, and given that he just murdered an unarmed woman and had previously committed a terrorist attack that poisoned tens of thousands of people for the sole purpose of capturing Data this is a credible threat.
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Old March 5 2013, 01:35 PM   #24
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Re: Data and killing

The Librarian wrote: View Post
How can Data force Fajo to do anything? His only option is to shoot him, and Fajo has just declared he doesn't believe Data can do it. Not won't do it - physically can't because of his programming. Meanwhile, Fajo has said that he'll start killing people if Data doesn't cooperate, and given that he just murdered an unarmed woman and had previously committed a terrorist attack that poisoned tens of thousands of people for the sole purpose of capturing Data this is a credible threat.
Precisely.
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Old March 5 2013, 07:00 PM   #25
Mojochi
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Re: Data and killing

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
Ahh... The Fajo debate reignites. The man had a 24th century starship at his disposal, & declared that the only way to stop him was to kill him, surrender, or face the consequence of him killing anyone in his way in order to get what he wanted.
And you believe him?
When someone who has murdered says they will murder more, a sensible person will take seriously that claim. When someone has the ability to kidnap & hold in captivity possibly the most able bodied & resourceful person in all Starfleet, AND still has almost all those abilities, it's fair to treat them as though the threat is not idle or negligible
Knowing Data as an exceedingly well reasoned individual, we can assume he weighed carefully his options & actions, and made the right choice, for the circumstance. Fajo's mistake was to assume Data can't grow beyond his programming, which we all know is certainly not the case
In other words, Data did it, Data always makes the best choices, therefore what Data did was right.
We can figure from past experience with his character that his process of reasoning is sound enough that he's not the kind of person to execute someone without the need, HIM least of all.
But, it wasn't Data, it was the writer of the episode. The writer of the episode dropped the ball.
It's a wonder you can manage to enjoy Star Trek at all. It's not a show known for an absence of plot holes & contrivances. (What show is?) I notice you skipped my point about Worf only getting a reprimand after a full blown murder, & Riker getting outright released after covering up a mutiny that led to loss of ship & crew, and conspiracy to violate a treaty. Ultimately, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I could do that with every episode
Data was acting in the defense of himself & others while abducted, and was spared the actual consequence of having to kill the guy. Plus, as he may have considered his actions being of a personal nature & not as a Starfleet officer, when Riker asked him about the disruptor discharge, his response of "Perhaps something happened during transport" was a clear cut dose of "mind your own business"
Data was acting in defense? Fajo was disarmed and helpless. He was no threat to anyone.
On board & in command of his own starship full of technology & personnel is hardly helpless. He isn't just a threat, he's an indiscriminate threat. Data doesn't know enough about the man's personal defenses, ship's capabilities or potential strategies to risk giving up this singular advantage

Kill this one man now & it's a certainty that no one else will be killed by him, or don't and risk the possibility that there was some way for him to do so. You are in the position of having to prove to me that Fajo is helpless & not capable of carrying through is threat. Can you do it? He is on board his own ship. Knowing almost nothing about his defenses & capabilities, in what way is he helpless? He has a ship full of help

Data has nothing to his advantage but a disruptor in his hand & a narrow window of opportunity that is closing, plus an enemy who doesn't even think he can use it, which actually makes the situation more volatile
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Old March 5 2013, 08:54 PM   #26
Tom Riley
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Re: Data and killing

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Secondly, Data had the means of incapacitating Fajo. He had lots of options. Force him into the escape pod that was sitting right there. Disable the escape pod's computer and seal it shut.
All I have to say about this is, how exactly are you supposed to force someone to do something if you have no power over them? Data could not physically touch Fajo, so he couldn't push him into the escape pod. And if Fajo doesn't believe Data would shoot him, why would he do what Data asked under threat of being shot? No one is going to do something against their will without a reason to. If Data couldn't shoot Fajo and couldn't physically touch him then he has no way to force Fajo to do anything.

As for fighting the crew, at that point, Data couldn't shoot any of the crew any more than he could shoot Fajo, the disruptor would be useless. Yes, Data is exceptional at hand-to-hand combat but Fajo had a total of four of those disruptors. Data had one, another was on the floor, and two more were off somewhere on the ship. While Data was fighting off the crew Fajo would undoubtedly call in, Fajo could grab the one off the floor or go find one of the other two. Who would the crew obey, Data who could only physically attack them or Fajo who was his disruptor? But then once Fajo had his hands on another gun Data would have had to comply with Fajo's demands given his threat to kill more of his crew and wouldn't be able to put up a fight against the crew. I am not convinced that Data could have persuaded the crew to join him when Fajo had his disruptor. The crew would basically be hearing "definitely die at Fajo's hand right now or possibly maybe be killed by Fajo at some unknown point in the future." Data really only had one choice and he made it.
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Old March 6 2013, 12:44 AM   #27
Tiberius
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Re: Data and killing

The Librarian wrote: View Post
How can Data force Fajo to do anything? His only option is to shoot him, and Fajo has just declared he doesn't believe Data can do it. Not won't do it - physically can't because of his programming. Meanwhile, Fajo has said that he'll start killing people if Data doesn't cooperate, and given that he just murdered an unarmed woman and had previously committed a terrorist attack that poisoned tens of thousands of people for the sole purpose of capturing Data this is a credible threat.
I can think of several ways for Data to force Fajo to do things

First, he can shoot the deck at Fajo's feet. If someone shoots the ground at your feet, you're going to jump away from it. Using this technique, Data can force Fajo into the escape pod, where Data can shoot out the control panel and seal Fajo inside.

Secondly, Data's in a cargo bay. There's all sorts of things he can just pick up and throw at Fajo to render him injured or unconscious. Break both of Fajo's arms by throwing crates or other cargo at him, and he won't physically be able to use the disrupter, rendering his threats of further violence meaningless.

Thirdly, Data can fire the disrupter at the door to the cargo bay, sealing it closed and leaving Fajo trapped.
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Old March 6 2013, 12:56 AM   #28
Tiberius
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Re: Data and killing

Mojochi wrote: View Post
When someone who has murdered says they will murder more, a sensible person will take seriously that claim. When someone has the ability to kidnap & hold in captivity possibly the most able bodied & resourceful person in all Starfleet, AND still has almost all those abilities, it's fair to treat them as though the threat is not idle or negligible
Firstly, I'd find Fajo's threat more serious if he hadn't just thrown his weapon away. At the time, Fajo was an UNARMED man trying to intimidate Data.

Secondly, the only way that Fajo was able to capture Data was with a sneak attack to incapacitate him. Data isn't going to let ANYONE on that ship close enough to do that again.

We can figure from past experience with his character that his process of reasoning is sound enough that he's not the kind of person to execute someone without the need, HIM least of all.
And there was no need to do it in this case.

It's a wonder you can manage to enjoy Star Trek at all. It's not a show known for an absence of plot holes & contrivances. (What show is?) I notice you skipped my point about Worf only getting a reprimand after a full blown murder, & Riker getting outright released after covering up a mutiny that led to loss of ship & crew, and conspiracy to violate a treaty.
Unless your point is that since Worf and Riker got away with it, Data should as well, I don't see what your point is.

Anyway, the circumstances are different. I'm not talking about why Data should get away with "Perhaps something happened during transport." I'm saying that it never should have happened in the first place. Both Worf and Riker's action can be logically explained by the circumstances. Worf was acting in accordance with Klingon culture, Riker was an inexperienced junior officer who was blinded by loyalty to his captain. I've already given my arguments that Data's actions were not justified.

Data was acting in the defense of himself & others while abducted, and was spared the actual consequence of having to kill the guy.
Yes, defending everyone from a man who was so shocked at what he'd done that he'd thrown his weapon away and left himself unarmed.

On board & in command of his own starship full of technology & personnel is hardly helpless. He isn't just a threat, he's an indiscriminate threat. Data doesn't know enough about the man's personal defenses, ship's capabilities or potential strategies to risk giving up this singular advantage
So? You think Data was going to let Fajo activate some control panel? Call for help from his crew? There are many other ways of stopping Fajo from using his ship as I've already explained.

Kill this one man now & it's a certainty that no one else will be killed by him, or don't and risk the possibility that there was some way for him to do so. You are in the position of having to prove to me that Fajo is helpless & not capable of carrying through is threat. Can you do it? He is on board his own ship. Knowing almost nothing about his defenses & capabilities, in what way is he helpless? He has a ship full of help
lol, I think we need a role play thing here. You suggest something that Fajo could do, and I'll play Data and try to stop you.

But in any case, a ship full of help? Come on, his crew has just seen him murder one of his closest associates. You really think they're going to help him? More likely, Fajo's going to get a good old, "Screw you. What are you going to do, whip me with harsh language?" And then they'd beat the crap out of him. Killing Varria ensured that his crew would be DISloyal to him. Fahjo would need a weapon to get them to do what he says - and he just threw it away!

Data has nothing to his advantage but a disruptor in his hand & a narrow window of opportunity that is closing, plus an enemy who doesn't even think he can use it, which actually makes the situation more volatile
And as I've said, Data can use the disrupter in non-lethal ways. And he has more assets than just a disrupter. he has the entire contents of the cargo bay he's in!
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Old March 6 2013, 01:00 AM   #29
Tiberius
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Re: Data and killing

Tom Riley wrote: View Post
All I have to say about this is, how exactly are you supposed to force someone to do something if you have no power over them? Data could not physically touch Fajo, so he couldn't push him into the escape pod. And if Fajo doesn't believe Data would shoot him, why would he do what Data asked under threat of being shot? No one is going to do something against their will without a reason to. If Data couldn't shoot Fajo and couldn't physically touch him then he has no way to force Fajo to do anything.
I've already explained the many options Data has. Shoot the floor near Fajo's feet, that will get him moving. Pick up big heavy things and throw them so Fajo has to move to avoid injury. Hell, Data could probably throw someting accurately enough to smash the anti-android thing on Fajo's belt! You saw how good he was with the dice in "The Royale"!

As for fighting the crew, at that point, Data couldn't shoot any of the crew any more than he could shoot Fajo, the disruptor would be useless. Yes, Data is exceptional at hand-to-hand combat but Fajo had a total of four of those disruptors. Data had one, another was on the floor, and two more were off somewhere on the ship. While Data was fighting off the crew Fajo would undoubtedly call in, Fajo could grab the one off the floor or go find one of the other two.
As I've said, Data has other methods to incapacitate Fajo.

Who would the crew obey, Data who could only physically attack them or Fajo who was his disruptor?
This depends on Fajo getting his disrupter.

But then once Fajo had his hands on another gun Data would have had to comply with Fajo's demands given his threat to kill more of his crew and wouldn't be able to put up a fight against the crew. I am not convinced that Data could have persuaded the crew to join him when Fajo had his disruptor. The crew would basically be hearing "definitely die at Fajo's hand right now or possibly maybe be killed by Fajo at some unknown point in the future." Data really only had one choice and he made it.
All of which depends on Fajo getting his hands on another weapon, something which Data can prevent.
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Old March 6 2013, 01:08 AM   #30
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Data and killing

Tiberius, your little idea of shooting the floor at Fajo's feet has already been refuted in this thread.

The main problem is that Data doesn't know all the means that Fajo has at his disposal. Data has already been surprised. What we do know is that once he recaptures Data, he will increase his security. The more chances Data takes at that moment, the worse his position.

Fajo believes that Data will not harm him. Firing warning shots will therefore have no effect; Fajo will believe that the threat is empty.

On the other hand, if Data fires in proximity, he could accidentally hurt Fajo. Knowing he could get hurt accidentally, Fajo will simply activate one his failsafes, which we can assume he has based on his pattern to date, to recapture Data.

Or, it could ricochet and kill Fajo or someone actually more innocent.

Fajo is vulnerable only because he is gloating in this moment when he believes Data will not fire. Change any of that, and it's Data who becomes vulnerable.

Finally, how much charge is there on the disruptor? Can Data be sure that there is even enough to fire it more than once or just a small number of times?

Your little idea depends on being able to fire the weapon a large number of times, and it offers too many chances to Fajo. Data was never going to have a better opportunity in the foreseeable future to neutralize this brutal danger to the galaxy.
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