RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,928
Posts: 5,478,786
Members: 25,054
Currently online: 429
Newest member: DRayTrekkie

TrekToday headlines

Trek Shirt And Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

A Klingon Christmas Carol’s Last Season
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

Attack Wing Wave 10 Expansion Pack
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Trek Actors In War Of The Worlds Fundraiser
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Star Trek: The Next Generation Gag Reel Tease
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Shatner In Haven
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 4 2013, 05:26 AM   #16
Gul Re'jal
Commodore
 
Gul Re'jal's Avatar
 
Location: Gul Re'jal is suspecting she's on the wrong space station
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Gul Re'jal wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
I'd imagine in public he'd declare it pointless but shrug it off, while in private seeing it as an atrocity.
I am not so sure I'd expect Garak to classify it as an atrocity. He was a cruel man himself, who believed getting his results was worth any price (he even tortured Odo and who knows how many other people, or committed murder(s)), so I wouldn't assume that anyone's suffering made any impression on him. Especially if that suffering was non-Cardassian for the good of Cardassia.
IIRC, Garak only tortured Odo because he was ordered to do so, and even then, it hurt him to do it.
I'm not sure I'm buying Garak's crocodile tears.

Garak was ready to commit genocide and kill all changelings on the planet. I doubt he'd care much about Bajorans and their lives, if killing them all would serve his purpose. If the occupation was good for Cardassia, then the Bajorans were just collateral damage. Maybe, as JustKate pointed out, pointless if without a reason, but Garak was hardly a sympathetic and nice character. He's liked by many fans and whitewashed due to that, but if you look carefully, he's not so nice and innocent.
__________________
Archer: "You're going to drown my dog?! "
Phlox: "Only for an hour, Captain... "

Last edited by Gul Re'jal; March 4 2013 at 06:07 AM. Reason: typo
Gul Re'jal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 4 2013, 05:49 AM   #17
Iliana Malek
Lieutenant
 
Iliana Malek's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of Texas
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

^Agreed. It's funny, but Andrew Robinson actually mentioned that he didn't want people to like Garak, Garak wasn't supposed to be one of the "good guys", he wanted him to be seen as the quiet villain. He worked for the heroes, sure, but it was always for his own ends, because it benefited him, and not for some larger altruistic reason.

Re'jal has a good point, he was perfectly alright with killing off the entire changeling race, I don't think genocide of any species would have affected his night's sleep one bit.
__________________
~I started it tomorrow, I will finish yesterday~
Iliana Malek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 4 2013, 12:38 PM   #18
JustKate
Rear Admiral
 
JustKate's Avatar
 
Location: Indiana, USA
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

^While I agree he was not what I would consider a good person, I don't agree that he was self-serving. What he really cared about was Cardassia. This doesn't excuse his brutalities, at least not in my opinion, but they were not done to benefit "himself."
JustKate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 4 2013, 01:26 PM   #19
indolover
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

I think Garak was basically a good person, who could sometimes do bad things. That said, Dukat was essentially the exact opposite.
indolover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 4 2013, 02:22 PM   #20
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

For my money, I think that Garak in later seasons was probably more influenced by Federation values, and would probably have come to view the Occupation as immoral. I think that he had begun to understand how oppressive the Cardassian system he had served truly was -- and that the oppressive nature of that system was what led to its inevitable demise at the hands of the Dominion.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 5 2013, 09:31 AM   #21
Muldfeld
Ensign
 
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

I think Garak might not have been that critical since he was a nationalist. How many Americans or Canadians deride the occupation of Afghanistan, where thousands of innocent civilians have died -- often in "collateral damage". Behr was trying to criticize all colonialism.
Muldfeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 5 2013, 05:26 PM   #22
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

Muldfeld wrote: View Post
I think Garak might not have been that critical since he was a nationalist. How many Americans or Canadians deride the occupation of Afghanistan, where thousands of innocent civilians have died -- often in "collateral damage".
Huge numbers, actually.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 5 2013, 06:20 PM   #23
Iliana Malek
Lieutenant
 
Iliana Malek's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of Texas
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

With that, like anything else, you are going to have people that just genuinely don't care. I think Garak just doesn't really care.
__________________
~I started it tomorrow, I will finish yesterday~
Iliana Malek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 5 2013, 10:47 PM   #24
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

Muldfeld wrote: View Post
I think Garak might not have been that critical since he was a nationalist. How many Americans or Canadians deride the occupation of Afghanistan, where thousands of innocent civilians have died -- often in "collateral damage". Behr was trying to criticize all colonialism.
While Pres. Bush was still in the Whitehouse, about half of the Democrats. Now that Pres. Obama is in the Whitehouse, it's about half of the Republicans
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 02:16 AM   #25
HaventGotALife
Fleet Captain
 
HaventGotALife's Avatar
 
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

What You Leave Behind did touch on it a little. "Some will say that we got what we deserved." I think he's talking about the Occupation and joining the Dominion.
__________________
"Cogley was old-fashioned, preferring paper books to computers. He had an extensive collection of books, he claimed never to use the computer in his office."
HaventGotALife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 02:40 AM   #26
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

^ I don't think even the Bajorans would take much joy in what has happened to Cardassia. The Occupation was brutal, to be sure, but only the most radical of Bajoran terrorists would actually be happy after what has happened since then.

It'd take a sociopathic mindset to actually take pleasure in the destruction of an entire planet, no matter what the inhabitants of that planet once did.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 03:23 AM   #27
Iliana Malek
Lieutenant
 
Iliana Malek's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of Texas
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
What You Leave Behind did touch on it a little. "Some will say that we got what we deserved." I think he's talking about the Occupation and joining the Dominion.
I don't think that reflected his own opinion, though, it was more of a sardonic comment on how others would react to the destruction of Cardassia. He's seen and experienced people's opinions on Cardassia for years, so he can certainly imagine that people probably wouldn't have much simpathy for them after the destruction of their world. I'm sure he's right, and that there were plenty of Bajorans, and others, that were happy to hear about what happened. Besides, we have seen plenty of examples of people rejoicing at mass death here on our own planet, it's not a stretch to imagine that there were people in the Trekverse that thought that Cardassia had it coming.
__________________
~I started it tomorrow, I will finish yesterday~
Iliana Malek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 03:24 AM   #28
Gul Re'jal
Commodore
 
Gul Re'jal's Avatar
 
Location: Gul Re'jal is suspecting she's on the wrong space station
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

I found totally appalling what Garak said. The occupation was horrible, no doubt, but a near genocide hardly is "justice". Even if adding other atrocities we might not know about, that's still not justice.
__________________
Archer: "You're going to drown my dog?! "
Phlox: "Only for an hour, Captain... "
Gul Re'jal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 04:40 AM   #29
HaventGotALife
Fleet Captain
 
HaventGotALife's Avatar
 
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

Iliana Malek wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
What You Leave Behind did touch on it a little. "Some will say that we got what we deserved." I think he's talking about the Occupation and joining the Dominion.
I don't think that reflected his own opinion, though, it was more of a sardonic comment on how others would react to the destruction of Cardassia. He's seen and experienced people's opinions on Cardassia for years, so he can certainly imagine that people probably wouldn't have much simpathy for them after the destruction of their world. I'm sure he's right, and that there were plenty of Bajorans, and others, that were happy to hear about what happened. Besides, we have seen plenty of examples of people rejoicing at mass death here on our own planet, it's not a stretch to imagine that there were people in the Trekverse that thought that Cardassia had it coming.
"Well aren't you going to congratulate me, Doctor? My exile is now officially over. I've returned home, or rather what's left of it.

"You know some may say that we've gotten just what we deserved. After all, we're not entirely innocent, are we? And I'm not just speaking about the Bajoran Occupation. No, our whole history has been one of arrogant aggression. We've collaborated with the Dominion, betrayed the entire Alpha Quadrant. Oh, oh there's no doubt about it: we are guilty as charged."

I think he's personally disgusted at his whole race. I don't think he's speaking as if "someone might think that."
__________________
"Cogley was old-fashioned, preferring paper books to computers. He had an extensive collection of books, he claimed never to use the computer in his office."
HaventGotALife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2013, 04:56 AM   #30
Iliana Malek
Lieutenant
 
Iliana Malek's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of Texas
Re: Garak's Thoughts on the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor

True, he may have been disgusted with the actions of his race, but that was more toward the actions undertaken during the Dominion War, and not the Occupation. (I just rewatched the scene, it's admittedly been a while since I'd seen it.) He seemed more upset that Cardassia had caused its own destruction by allying with the Dominion. He was angry at the loss on Prime, and that Cardassia would never again be the Cardassia that he knew. He's frustrated and he's grieving.
__________________
~I started it tomorrow, I will finish yesterday~
Iliana Malek is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.