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Old March 28 2013, 12:15 AM   #1
WesleysDisciple
Lieutenant Commander
 
Was Sisko a Javert

did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet didd, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Eddington made teh comparison and I have to admit reading les miserables last few weeks I find it compelling.
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Old March 28 2013, 01:07 AM   #2
Admiral_Sisko
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet didd, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Eddington made teh comparison and I have to admit reading les miserables last few weeks I find it compelling.
I don't think so. Jean Valjean was imprisoned because he stole a loaf of bread. Javert hunted him because he believed that all people were either law breakers or law abiders, and that it was impossible for one to change once he became one or the other.

Valjean was a different person after leaving prison. He became the mayor of Vigo and spent his life helping other people, including the child born out of wedlock to a prostitute.

Eddington supported a group of people who knowingly broke away from the Federation, and instead of negotiating a separate piece to avoid further bloodshed, took up arms against the Cardassians, precipitating a conflict that eventually dragged in the Federation, leading to the loss or damage of several Starfleet vessels.

Sisko hunted Eddington because he took the latter's betrayal of his command personally. It's possible that Eddington's defection reminded Sisko of his ruined friendship with Cal Hudson, who later died during a skirmish with the Cardassians. Sisko was certainly obsessed with Eddington, but his obsession was due to a desire for vengence, not because he rigidly believed that Eddington was incapable of reform.

In fact, when Sisko tried to convince Eddington to help him disarm the missles rumored to be targeting Cardassia, he offered him a full pardon in return for his sevice, going so far as to say that Eddington could do whatever he wanted once his assignment was over, something Javert would never had accepted.
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Old March 28 2013, 01:12 AM   #3
R. Star
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Um one there was a negotiated peace... the Cardassians were violating it day by day when they were killing the Maquis colonists and the Federation did nothing. I can't blame them at all for taking up arms.

As for the Javert comment, the parallels are there, but mainly I think Eddington just kept pushing it to get under Sisko's skin more than anything else.
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Old March 28 2013, 02:00 AM   #4
indolover
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

I never understood Sisko's obsession. Seemed it was more like ego.

He should have left it to the JAG officer for that sector lol.. Also, I liked how Avery Brooks pronounced Micheal Eddington "Mike-ul Eddingtun" lo...
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Old March 28 2013, 02:41 AM   #5
Gotham Central
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Sisko was personally pissed at Eddington, not the Maquis personally. If anything Sisko wanted the Maquis to come in from the cold. That was NOT Javert's attitude. Javert would never have been able to forgive, let alone love Cassidy. Javert could never have tolerated having officers like Dax or Kira serving under him let alone Odo...who's sense of justice trumps his view of the law. Hell...Sisko tolerated Quark and Garak.

Sisko's issue with Eddington was personal. Not only did he betray Starfleet, he used and betrayed Sisko's trust.
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Old March 28 2013, 03:16 AM   #6
lurok
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

No. But a better singer than Crowe.
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Old March 28 2013, 04:52 AM   #7
SoM
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"
Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.
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Old March 28 2013, 03:06 PM   #8
Timo
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

We never heard of a ban or other expression of disapproval over the use of chemical weapons. Probably those are considered much more humane than, say, kinetic weapons or death rays, and would be the preferred sort if not for the pesky opponents so often donning gas masks or gas-stopping shields.

What I found more surprising and perhaps objectionable was the introduction of the concept of a "Maquis planet". Until this episode, the Maquis had been a group operating out of certain colony worlds but certainly not forming any major part of the population - or in other words, the inhabitants had expressed no formal association with the movement. The sudden emergence of "Maquis planets" makes it much easier to use global-scale weapons, which is a great convenience in terms of drama, Starfleet politics and Sisko's tactics alike...

Jean Valjean was imprisoned because he stole a loaf of bread.
...Whereas Eddington stole the whole goddamn bakery, leaving millions starving, all so that he could bake weapons for himself.

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Old March 28 2013, 06:28 PM   #9
R. Star
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

SoM wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"
Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.
Just picture a nuclear sub captain deciding to nuke an Arabian village suspected of harboring an Al Qaida cell without even bothering to make a phonecall first.
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Old March 28 2013, 07:11 PM   #10
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

R. Star wrote: View Post
SoM wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"
Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.
Just picture a nuclear sub captain deciding to nuke an Arabian village suspected of harboring an Al Qaida cell without even bothering to make a phonecall first.
Yeah but wouldn't it actually be a case where it was an Al Qaida village not a cell and this would be after they started using nukes in terrorist attacks?
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Old March 28 2013, 07:41 PM   #11
Timo
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Only if you replace "nukes" with "tear gas" for both sides...

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Old March 30 2013, 07:23 PM   #12
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

SoM wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"
Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.
Starfleet cut Sisko's pay by 75% for several years

But really:

1. Noone was hurt - didn't even cause any environmental issues, most likely, as the Cardies from the planet Eddington gassed just moved there. Sure, it rendered the planet uninhabitable to human life, but the humans there had plenty of time to evacuate (and get a new world completely free from Cardassian occupation in the future!).

2. It most likely helped solidify Federation-Cardassian relations. Starfleet was pretty lax about doing stuff about the Maquis until Eddington's betrayal, which no doubt pissed the Cardassians off some, even with the newer, nicer civilian government. If the Cardies had the resources to divert from the Klingon effort, do you think they wouldn't have done the exact same thing Sisko did? If they didn't, it would be because they glassed the human colony instead of merely forcing them off the planet. The Cardassians finally saw a Starfleet captain with what it took to fight the Maquis.

3. Starfleet culture and morals aren't the same as Western 20-21st century morals - the Prime Directive is proof enough of that. Remember, Starfleet isn't just humans, so it makes sense that they might do things somewhat differently. And they do, even if it doesn't agree with how Our Heroes (with whom the audience is supposed to identify) view things - which we see often enough as well. Maybe some Vulcan JAG officer reviewing the case thought Sisko's actions were logical and justified, and dismissed the charges.
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Old March 31 2013, 03:08 AM   #13
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Sisko did take Eddington's betrayal too personally and as a bruise to his ego but I don't think he stepped over the line. And Eddington's delusions of picaresque grandeur were really just as bad and way more creepy.

Let's also remember that nobody died when Sisko gassed the planet, and he was completely sure Eddington would continue to do it to Cardassian planets.
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Old March 31 2013, 05:39 AM   #14
R. Star
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Sisko did take Eddington's betrayal too personally and as a bruise to his ego but I don't think he stepped over the line. And Eddington's delusions of picaresque grandeur were really just as bad and way more creepy.

Let's also remember that nobody died when Sisko gassed the planet, and he was completely sure Eddington would continue to do it to Cardassian planets.
You honestly think that a planet with thousands, if not millions of people, can be evacuated by a terrorist group that doesn't even have enough ships to fight their enemies in an open battle in the window of an hour? We couldn't even evacuate New Orleans with a week's foreknowledge of Katrina.
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Old March 31 2013, 05:20 PM   #15
indolover
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
SoM wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"
Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.
Starfleet cut Sisko's pay by 75% for several years

But really:

1. Noone was hurt - didn't even cause any environmental issues, most likely, as the Cardies from the planet Eddington gassed just moved there. Sure, it rendered the planet uninhabitable to human life, but the humans there had plenty of time to evacuate (and get a new world completely free from Cardassian occupation in the future!).

2. It most likely helped solidify Federation-Cardassian relations. Starfleet was pretty lax about doing stuff about the Maquis until Eddington's betrayal, which no doubt pissed the Cardassians off some, even with the newer, nicer civilian government. If the Cardies had the resources to divert from the Klingon effort, do you think they wouldn't have done the exact same thing Sisko did? If they didn't, it would be because they glassed the human colony instead of merely forcing them off the planet. The Cardassians finally saw a Starfleet captain with what it took to fight the Maquis.

3. Starfleet culture and morals aren't the same as Western 20-21st century morals - the Prime Directive is proof enough of that. Remember, Starfleet isn't just humans, so it makes sense that they might do things somewhat differently. And they do, even if it doesn't agree with how Our Heroes (with whom the audience is supposed to identify) view things - which we see often enough as well. Maybe some Vulcan JAG officer reviewing the case thought Sisko's actions were logical and justified, and dismissed the charges.
Yeah, so Starfleet has no general guidelines in applying legislation. Just like today, it's standard legal practice to arbitrarily apply precedent and guidelines.
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