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Old March 2 2013, 02:08 AM   #46
feek61
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Sindatur wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Yes but... this TrekCore interview remark leads me to think that appealing to a younger demographic via new pop music was only a small part of the deal.

Seems to me that directly promoting whatever "hot young bands" was the main factor, what with the album card appearing at the eps end and all that.

The big thing seems to be having these (again) "hot young bands" appear directly, performing their songs, in the eps, as part of a promotion deal.

Having the crew only listening to their music, or playing their music, probably wouldn't be enough. Sounds like the bands had to show up playing on-screen somehow.

Maybe that's not the case, but that's my read of the interview. It needn't be that way. I remember the eps promos used pop music, a way could have been found to use more of it without directly including the "HOT YOUNG BANDS" in the ship's restaurant.
Eh, there's several ways it could have been done.

As previously mentioned, it could be a broadcast they are watching, or they could slide them into holoprograms, or as just mentioned, have the band members guest sar as Star Fleet personnel competing in a talent contest.

Now, of course, none of these ideas could be used every week, and working a band in every week, would likely be a disster anyways, but, no reason they couldn't find ways to do it a few times a season.

Another possibility might be to have different bands sing the opening theme.
There were no "holoprograms" in Enterprise or TOS for that matter.
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Old March 2 2013, 02:30 AM   #47
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

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The network execs may be at fault for not letting Voyager and Enterprise be the shows they were supposed to be, but you can't blame them for all the shitty scripts that plagued both shows.
Nobody's saying the "blame" should be concentrated exclusively on any one person or group. On the contrary, my whole point is that it's overly simplistic to pick just one culpable party. Lots of people are involved in making a TV show, and there are lots of different decisions and factors that can contribute to a bad episode -- even when everyone is sincerely trying to do good work. I agree, as I've already said, that Braga was the weakest showrunner -- but he still did good work as a writer on TNG and VGR, and sometimes on ENT too. I agree that Berman wasn't the best at writing, but he was a fantastic logistical/technical producer and Trek would never have come close to the success and quality it had at its peak if not for his commitment and talent in that regard. Dwelling strictly on the negative side is self-indulgent and blinds you to the truth.

More to the point, this is a simple matter of getting the facts straight. Yes, there are things Berman and Braga can be held accountable for, but that doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to blame them for the specific decisions that were made by someone else. Credit and blame should be given where they're due. You don't just pick one scapegoat and blame them for everything even when it's a lie. Lies are unacceptable. That should be the first, overriding principle that goes without saying. If someone isn't to blame for a particular decision, you don't blame them for it. It doesn't matter one damn bit if there are other bad decisions they made -- they still didn't make that one. It's about setting the record straight.


I doubt the network execs told them: "Make 5 time travel episodes a season", or "Make the temporal cold war absurdly convoluted, and not in a mysterious exciting Lost or Twin Peaks sense, but rather in a 'Just fucking stupid and impossible to logically track' sense."
Well, you're wrong, at least where ENT is concerned. Berman & Braga didn't want to deal with time travel at all on that show; it was entirely in response to the network's demand for something that moved forward from the TNG era.


They could have made a much better show with more serialized arcs.
Again, that's the worst example you could've chosen. The lack of serialization was one of the things that was definitely due to the network's will rather than the producers'. VGR and ENT were episodic because that's what UPN wanted.

I would also point out that ENT did have serialized arcs. There's actually a pretty good sense of continuity running through the first season, a number of subtle arcs -- Archer and T'Pol overcoming their initial mistrust and becoming friends, NX-01 establishing itself as an interstellar presence, the evolving storyline with the TCW, Suliban, and Tandarans, etc. And of course seasons 3 and 4 had plenty of serialization. Season 2 is the only one that feels purely episodic, although it did advance the arc of the Klingons' bad blood toward Archer in "Judgment" and "The Expanse."


But with such low standards for scripts, they could have never produced anything anyone liked.
Speak for yourself. There's a lot about VGR and ENT that I liked. Sure, there's a lot I disliked too, but both shows managed to do some pretty worthwhile stuff from time to time despite the network restrictions.


Between the end of DS9 and the 3rd season of Enterprise, both the execs and the writers displayed absolutely no idea what the people who still tuned in every week wanted in a television show.
Oh, great, another person who says "what people want" when what you really mean is "what I want." Why do so many people do that? Is it too frightening to stand up and admit your opinions are your own and not necessarily shared by everyone?


None of them ever thought 'Hey, let's have a character driven show with exciting adventure and smart action', which is what might have kept the franchise going a little longer.
The producers of ENT actually did make it a character-driven show at first; a lot of the first season's episodes are smallish character pieces that are more about exploring the crew and their relationships than about big action and high concepts. There's a pretty clear M*A*S*H influence on it at times (particularly with things like movie night and Phlox's letters to Dr. Lucas). "Dear Doctor" is even that almost unprecedented thing in Star Trek, a pure drama without any physical danger or action. But from the second season on, it shifted focus more toward action and high-concept sci-fi gimmicks -- most likely under network pressure. (Although the second season's "A Night in Sickbay" is another pure drama, with no danger to anyone except Porthos. It wasn't a story that worked particularly well, but nobody can say it wasn't character-driven.)
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Old March 2 2013, 02:38 AM   #48
Sindatur
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

feek61 wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Yes but... this TrekCore interview remark leads me to think that appealing to a younger demographic via new pop music was only a small part of the deal.

Seems to me that directly promoting whatever "hot young bands" was the main factor, what with the album card appearing at the eps end and all that.

The big thing seems to be having these (again) "hot young bands" appear directly, performing their songs, in the eps, as part of a promotion deal.

Having the crew only listening to their music, or playing their music, probably wouldn't be enough. Sounds like the bands had to show up playing on-screen somehow.

Maybe that's not the case, but that's my read of the interview. It needn't be that way. I remember the eps promos used pop music, a way could have been found to use more of it without directly including the "HOT YOUNG BANDS" in the ship's restaurant.
Eh, there's several ways it could have been done.

As previously mentioned, it could be a broadcast they are watching, or they could slide them into holoprograms, or as just mentioned, have the band members guest sar as Star Fleet personnel competing in a talent contest.

Now, of course, none of these ideas could be used every week, and working a band in every week, would likely be a disster anyways, but, no reason they couldn't find ways to do it a few times a season.

Another possibility might be to have different bands sing the opening theme.
There were no "holoprograms" in Enterprise or TOS for that matter.
I had just been in the Voyager Forum and brought the Holoprograms with me
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Old March 2 2013, 03:01 PM   #49
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

feek61 wrote: View Post
There were no "holoprograms" in Enterprise or TOS for that matter.
But there were in the animated series. It wouldn't have been much of a stretch to say the technology was around in TOS and before, but simply went unseen to due budget/fx limitations of the 1960's. Especially since we're likely to have the beginnings of holographic technology in our lifetimes!
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Old March 2 2013, 04:39 PM   #50
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Except that early TNG portrayed holodecks as a new technology that characters like Riker were amazed to see.

But then again, VGR later suggested that holoprograms had been around in Janeway's childhood (and she's about the same age as Riker). And ENT had its characters firing at holographic practice targets way back in the 22nd century. It's all kind of a mess.
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Old March 2 2013, 09:56 PM   #51
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

ChristopherPike wrote: View Post
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I actually wouldn't have minded a radically different approach to the sound of Enterprise. Guitars and synth in there, with the orchestral strings pushed even further into the background.

There's harmonica and a bit of Americana during "Broken Bow" when Archer is thinking about the past, but it could've gone in even more experimental directions.

Dennis McCarthy provided some fine soundtracks, but a Star Trek prequel absolutely needed to move away from the classical scoring, that tries not to be intrusive like Voyager or Deep Space Nine.

Incidental music has appeared before, like Steppenwolf in Star Trek: First Contact and the Beastie Boys in the JJ Abrams picture. I'm not sure how Enterprise would've acheived that. Probably a bit like Movie Night, where the crew can be free to listen to whatever music they like in their quarters off duty. That kind of reinforces that the show is closer to our present day than the 23rd or 24th Centuries and next centuries' popular culture isn't all that different from our own.

Then you've basically got that whole Vic Fontaine aspect of Deep Space Nine, where a guest character gets the main cast to join in singing easy listening material.

It'd be very dangerous to pick whatever's "now", only for that artist or band to disappear and never be heard from again. I'd certainly lean toward Rock more than Pop or R'n'B. They have had to pick something iconic, or an artist that's already well-established but maybe one of their lesser remembered songs. Preferrably with lyrics that creatively fit into the story or else it's basically just product placement.

I'm not down with teen sensation, One Direction being in the Mess Hall, for absolutely no reason other than it panders to a certain demographic. That's the current equivalent isn't it? Selling out. This time next year, that fickle age group won't even remember who the f--king hell they were.
Having some band appear on a holodeck or in a holosuite made some sense on DS9 (even though I disliked "Vic Fountain").

But since holo technology apparently did not exist in the 22nd century, the prospect of the appearance of different bands or singing groups on the NX-01 makes no sense whatsoever.

This UPN exec "suggestion" was reported in this forum some years ago and I recall thinking at the time that this was too silly to be true -- perhaps I was wrong.
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Old March 2 2013, 10:20 PM   #52
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Infern0 wrote: View Post
Well that would have been one of the worst things in the history of television.
A network suit thought it up, which should explain that.
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Old March 2 2013, 10:48 PM   #53
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

After reading that I'm suddenly grateful that Trek folk seemingly only listen to jazz and classical music.
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Old March 2 2013, 10:57 PM   #54
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Christopher wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I doubt the network execs told them: "Make 5 time travel episodes a season", or "Make the temporal cold war absurdly convoluted, and not in a mysterious exciting Lost or Twin Peaks sense, but rather in a 'Just fucking stupid and impossible to logically track' sense."
Well, you're wrong, at least where ENT is concerned. Berman & Braga didn't want to deal with time travel at all on that show; it was entirely in response to the network's demand for something that moved forward from the TNG era.
The execs wanted the future to be involved, which could have been accomplished by one group from the 25th century with consistent presence and goals. Instead we get 30th century people trying to stop 27th century people who seem to hold the Stargate Asgard principle of 'Whenever something bad is going to happen, don't do anything, but instead warn people about it who have way less power than you do, citing obscure nonsensical reasons why you can't do it yourself'.



Again, that's the worst example you could've chosen. The lack of serialization was one of the things that was definitely due to the network's will rather than the producers'. VGR and ENT were episodic because that's what UPN wanted.
Read my post more carefully without a lens of assumed hostility. The purpose of that part of my post was to say that, they could have made either the kind of show the writers wanted OR the kind of show the execs wanted, and made it a really good show if the writing wasn't shit.

Between the end of DS9 and the 3rd season of Enterprise, both the execs and the writers displayed absolutely no idea what the people who still tuned in every week wanted in a television show.
Oh, great, another person who says "what people want" when what you really mean is "what I want." Why do so many people do that? Is it too frightening to stand up and admit your opinions are your own and not necessarily shared by everyone?
Oh, that's not what I want. What I wanted was a completely serialized chronicle of the events leading to the foundation of the Federation that showed the growing pains of discovering the reasons for the Federation's ideals. That is the formula that seems to cause television shows to have high ratings: Characters that people like, whose development drives the show, exciting adventure and smart action. The kind of show I wanted would have gotten even lower ratings.

None of them ever thought 'Hey, let's have a character driven show with exciting adventure and smart action', which is what might have kept the franchise going a little longer.
The producers of ENT actually did make it a character-driven show at first; a lot of the first season's episodes are smallish character pieces that are more about exploring the crew and their relationships than about big action and high concepts.
The early episodes were about as character driven as an episode of Full House. Some character's personal quirk caused a problem, and they 'learned a lesson' which was summarily forgotten by the next episode. Each character overcame the same personal failing in every episode about them, just like on Voyager.
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