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Old February 28 2013, 08:44 PM   #16
ChristopherPike
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

The 602 Club was never the same after they installed that jukebox.

Britney Spears' Toxic over and over, and over again...

Commodore Forrest stopped by late one night, brandishing a very large lump hammer.
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Old February 28 2013, 09:25 PM   #17
Dick Whitman
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

The reason Berman and Braga get all the blame is we know their names. Do we know the names of any of UPN execs ? I certainly do not. So its easy to lay all responsibility for things fans do not like on the public face of TPTB. Which for television is writers and producers. Even if its not the reality.

This is not unique to Star Trek either. On any show that takes a turn the fans do not approve the known Producer is demonized. Being ignorant about how network tv works.

I know all the various DC Comics tv shows had a lot of different groups having a say in the content. Of course DC Comics itself. Plus Warner Bros, sure they are owned by the same corporation but they are still separate companies with different people working at each. On top of which you have the network which the show is airing on.
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Old February 28 2013, 09:27 PM   #18
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Donald Draper wrote: View Post
The reason Berman and Braga get all the blame is we know their names.
They were also the ones that wrote TATV. Unless of course fans think UPN FORCED them to write that story?
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Old February 28 2013, 09:54 PM   #19
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

^Everyone has off days. The point is that it's simplistic to blame the most prominent people for absolutely every decision you don't like. Hell, I've heard people blame Braga for things he had absolutely no involvement with, like Insurrection and Nemesis. Just because they got in the habit of associating his name with Berman's, they lazily assumed the two were joined at the hip.
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Old February 28 2013, 10:18 PM   #20
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Dream wrote: View Post
Donald Draper wrote: View Post
The reason Berman and Braga get all the blame is we know their names.
They were also the ones that wrote TATV. Unless of course fans think UPN FORCED them to write that story?
Notice I said ALL, meaning the whole series, not a particular episode.
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Old February 28 2013, 10:20 PM   #21
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

I'd say Ron Moore's tirade over Voyager makes a convincing argument that those two were part and parcel of Trek jumping the shark. Just because the execs also made bad calls doesn't mean the blame should just shift over to them.
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Old February 28 2013, 10:45 PM   #22
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

"What are these fellows calling themselves?"
"Kollpla."
"Sounds Klingon."
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Old February 28 2013, 11:08 PM   #23
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

mos6507 wrote: View Post
I'd say Ron Moore's tirade over Voyager makes a convincing argument that those two were part and parcel of Trek jumping the shark. Just because the execs also made bad calls doesn't mean the blame should just shift over to them.
It means that instead of falling for the simplistic allure of blame, we should recognize that creating television is a complex process with a lot of hands involved and can be difficult to get right even when everyone is sincerely trying to do their best. Now, I agree that Braga was probably the weakest Trek showrunner of the modern era, not counting the aged, infirm Roddenberry himself in TNG season 1. And I believe that Berman was a much better logistical producer than he was a writer. But I also think that both of them had good ideas as well as not-so-good ones, and we should be mature and honest enough to recognize that people are capable of doing both good and bad work in the course of their careers, rather than reducing people to caricatures of incompetence just because they made some creative decisions we didn't agree with.
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Old March 1 2013, 10:58 AM   #24
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Donald Draper wrote: View Post
The reason Berman and Braga get all the blame is we know their names. Do we know the names of any of UPN execs ? I certainly do not. So its easy to lay all responsibility for things fans do not like on the public face of TPTB. Which for television is writers and producers. Even if its not the reality.
But because we know their names the producers/writers also get all the credit when something's good, even if it was an executive's idea.

I don't think the executive should be criticised for having that idea, in a creative environment bad ideas happen all the time, it's inevitable. At least he was trying to do something new to boost the show's popularity, that's not a bad thing and Enterprise was criticised for being the same old crap again.
It's not even that different from stuff Star Trek had been doing for years, they always seemed to have a thing for incorporating the 20th century. Dixon Hill, Riker's jazz club, Joe Piscopo, Stephen Hawking, Sandrine's (technically a 24th century place that just happens to look like something you could walk into today), Tom Paris general fixation on the 20th century, various movie nights featuring ass old movies (from the characters' perspective).

Having hot new bands really isn't that different, the real problem seems to be that the writer's were flailing their arms because they couldn't use the holodeck like they did for years.

I also agree with the executive that it's the writer's job to come up with a way to make the idea work, that's what they get paid for, taking ideas and turning them into a filmable script.

You what happened when executives suggested "Batman in High School" to the DCAU writers? Instead of whining that it doesn't work they made Batman Beyond.

Maybe the band idea could have worked somehow but it doesn't seem like anyone even tried. At least it would have elevated the music from being accoustic wallpaper.

Another thing that bugs me, future guy and the stupid temporal cold war was still Berman's and Braga's fault. UPN obviously wanted a stuff from chronologically later Star Trek incorporated into the show, but B&B failed to do it in a way that didn't suck, the executives wanted it is no excuse, I doubt someone at UPN send them a specific "shadowy future guy with mysterious nonsense plan that no one, not even you understands" order.
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Old March 1 2013, 11:02 AM   #25
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Well that would have been one of the worst things in the history of television.
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Old March 1 2013, 03:09 PM   #26
Christopher
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Takeru wrote: View Post
At least it would have elevated the music from being accoustic wallpaper.
That happened anyway. The music in ENT was a lot richer than it had been on the previous couple of shows.


Another thing that bugs me, future guy and the stupid temporal cold war was still Berman's and Braga's fault. UPN obviously wanted a stuff from chronologically later Star Trek incorporated into the show, but B&B failed to do it in a way that didn't suck, the executives wanted it is no excuse, I doubt someone at UPN send them a specific "shadowy future guy with mysterious nonsense plan that no one, not even you understands" order.
I think that's a little harsh. It's hard to do a good job at something if you're not inspired by it, if it's just something you're ordered to insert by network fiat. The specifics may have been their idea, but it wasn't something they wanted to do at all; they wanted to focus strictly on the 22nd century. So without the desire or inspiration to do it, they were just going through the motions, and thus it's no wonder the results were unimpressive.

Indeed, maybe there was an element of protest to it. Maybe they wanted the TCW stuff to be so unimpressive that the network would agree to let them downplay or drop it. And if so, they kind of succeeded, because the TCW was barely dealt with in season 2 (outside of the season premiere and finale there was only "Future Tense"), retooled into the Xindi arc in season 3, and wrapped up entirely at the start of season 4.
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Old March 1 2013, 05:56 PM   #27
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Dream wrote: View Post
UPN didn't want Year of Hell to last a season.

UPN wanted Temporal Cold War.

I'd say the network did more damage to Trek than B&B ever did.

It really pays off being first run syndication like TNG and DS9 were, no stupid network "ideas"!
Are you saying the network wanted "These Are The Yoyages"?

Believe me, there's plenty of blame to go around, but IMO B&B deservedly get a lot of flack for their own very poor decisions; and IMO, that's justified.
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Old March 1 2013, 05:58 PM   #28
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

I think if this nameless exec had suggested "let's incorporate contemporary pop music into the series" rather then "let's have hot young bands in the ship's restaurant", it might have been better received.
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Old March 1 2013, 06:04 PM   #29
Sci
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Bringing in "hot young bands" to play aboard Enterprise would obviously have been implausible. But the idea of using modern music isn't inherently bad; they could have had the crew organize an "Open Mic Night" akin to the Movie Night they did use, and it wouldn't have been implausible to bring in smaller acts as Starfleet officers playing stripped-down songs on Open Mic Night.

But to make this plausible and consistent with the tone of the show, it would have been a better idea to focus on a variety of acts, and it would have also been a better idea to mix it up with songs from numerous different decades -- everything from someone playing Cole Porter to someone playing a Nirvana song, for instance. Bringing in Britney Spears to sing "Toxic" wouldn't be the best idea, but bringing in lesser-known acts like, say, Billy Bragg or Flogging Molly might well have worked -- as might have, say, bringing in Norbert Leo Butz to sing "You're the Top" or other such works.

I think that kind of flexibility would have allowed the writers to use "Open Mic Night" in much the same way the Bronze was used on Buffy -- not only a plot device to allow the characters to socialize in an off-duty setting, but to allow the opportunity to use a variety of musical formats to explore, express, and comment on the themes of a given episode.

It would certainly have been a departure from the Berman-era Trek formula, but it might have worked on an artistic level if it had been approached from the perspective of, "How can we use the music of our lifetimes to illustrate the themes we're exploring in our stories?" first and foremost, rather than from the perspective of, "How can we get the biggest bands on the Hot 100 this week to come on the show and do cross-promotions?"
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Old March 1 2013, 07:04 PM   #30
SchwEnt
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Re: Enterprise: Exec wanted "Top Bands" on the show

Yes but... this TrekCore interview remark leads me to think that appealing to a younger demographic via new pop music was only a small part of the deal.

Seems to me that directly promoting whatever "hot young bands" was the main factor, what with the album card appearing at the eps end and all that.

The big thing seems to be having these (again) "hot young bands" appear directly, performing their songs, in the eps, as part of a promotion deal.

Having the crew only listening to their music, or playing their music, probably wouldn't be enough. Sounds like the bands had to show up playing on-screen somehow.

Maybe that's not the case, but that's my read of the interview. It needn't be that way. I remember the eps promos used pop music, a way could have been found to use more of it without directly including the "HOT YOUNG BANDS" in the ship's restaurant.
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