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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old March 1 2013, 12:39 AM   #91
Therin of Andor
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Re: Why Khan?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I'm asking for THEME. I'm asking for a subject matter that leaves me thinking after the movie. I want them to take a subject and flesh it out in as many different ways as possible. Provide counter opinions for a healthy debate, but still make it true to life.
I took from ST 2009 that it was the "Nature vs Nurture" debate. Two Kirks we know: one grows up with a Mum and Dad, goes to Starfleet, makes great choices in life, commands a famous starship and makes it more famous. Another loses his Dad at birth, is rudderless for way too many years, makes poor choices, until Pike sponsors him. Isn't it also about fate?: is every Kirk destined to command the Enterprise? Certainly, he does in the Prime Universe, the Mirror Universe and this new timeline.

Spock and Uhura: their choice to have a relationship in this new timeline puts them on different personal arcs than in the Prime Universe. This Spock also has a very different father/son relationship than the Prime Universe Spock, who did not speak to Sarek as father-and-son for decades. And they have now lost Amanda and their home planet. How will it affect their futures?

Pike's destiny: crippled in both timelines.

After the film, my friends and I enjoyed many healthy debates about "Nature vs Nurture" and Fate and Destiny. Too bad you weren't there.
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Old March 1 2013, 12:47 AM   #92
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Re: Why Khan?

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
If an artist is just going to put drama on the big screen--this character is angry, that one is happy, they clash and the angry one makes the happy one suffer--then that's not deep enough for me to enjoy it. You what that is called? A soap opera. A bad one.
No it's called "your straw man." It's not even a reasonable description of drama.
It's a conflict--the very definition of drama. It's a basic one, but one I see often in movies.
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Old March 1 2013, 12:54 AM   #93
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Re: Why Khan?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I'm asking for THEME. I'm asking for a subject matter that leaves me thinking after the movie. I want them to take a subject and flesh it out in as many different ways as possible. Provide counter opinions for a healthy debate, but still make it true to life.
I took from ST 2009 that it was the "Nature vs Nurture" debate. Two Kirks we know: one grows up with a Mum and Dad, goes to Starfleet, makes great choices in life, commands a famous starship and makes it more famous. Another loses his Dad at birth, is rudderless for way too many years, makes poor choices, until Pike sponsors him. Isn't it also about fate?: is every Kirk destined to command the Enterprise? Certainly, he does in the Prime Universe, the Mirror Universe and this new timeline.

Spock and Uhura: their choice to have a relationship in this new timeline puts them on different personal arcs than in the Prime Universe. This Spock also has a very different father/son relationship than the Prime Universe Spock, who did not speak to Sarek as father-and-son for decades. And they have now lost Amanda and their home planet. How will it affect their futures?

Pike's destiny: crippled in both timelines.

After the film, my friends and I enjoyed many healthy debates about "Nature vs Nurture" and Fate and Destiny. Too bad you weren't there.
I also saw that--but I saw it in Nemesis as well. And that's when I had the debate, with my father. This is a better executed version of Nemesis. Vengeance. Trauma that leads to anger. Kirk left without any tempering by his father in comparison to Spock. Shinzon led by his pseudo-father that teaches him that hope is childish and Picard's completely different philosophy because their lives created "a unique individual."

Spock going on a vendetta after his father's conversation about how he shouldn't try to hide his anger is another reason why it doesn't hold up. Spock isn't any better off than Kirk. I would also add that Kirk has father figures. He has Pike "Your father was Captain of a Starship for 10 minutes...," and Prime Spock.

It's also on display that Spock is wrong. "A captain cannot cheat death." Kirk cheats death all the time and his recklessness has proven to keep him alive, "something Starfleet's lost." It's encouraged. And I don't think that's all that good to be putting forth. It's a movie and you can manipulate circumstances. Sometimes people lose and what I hope is that they continue with this character trait and have him lose to temper his arrogance.
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Old March 1 2013, 03:56 AM   #94
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Re: Why Khan?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
In fact, wasn't Koloth originally intended to be a recurring character although that never went through?
John Colicos as Kor was slated to be the recurring Klingon adversary for Kirk, but he notified that he was unavailable for "The Trouble With Tribbles". Then, he was supposed to play Kor in "Day of the Dove", but was again unavailable.
According to Memory Alpha Koloth was meant to be a recurring character. In fact, I've often wondered if in Trials and Tribble-Ations Dax's comment about Koloth regretting never facing Kirk in battle was a reference to those plans falling through.
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Old March 1 2013, 09:48 AM   #95
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Re: Why Khan?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
According to Memory Alpha Koloth was meant to be a recurring character.
And I quote you this page:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kor#...nd_information
"Kor was to have appeared in 'Day of the Dove', but John Colicos was not available."

According to David Gerrold's "Making of..." book, IIRC, Kor was first slated to be the Klingon antagonist returning for "Tribbles". Memory Alpha is only as reliable as the fans entering the data.

John Colicos had even helped with the creation of the Klingon makeup, as used in "Errand of Mercy", and was quite invested in the character. Fred Phillips forgot that they'd used a greenish brown greasepaint combination, so the "Tribbles" Klingons ended up caucasian.
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Old March 3 2013, 08:35 AM   #96
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Re: Why Khan?

You know, now I almost want Cumby to be White English! Khan, because if the mere possibility sparks this much enthusiasm / anger, imagine what will happen if it turns out to be true. It will be far more entertaining than the hate the lens flare got.
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Old March 3 2013, 09:50 AM   #97
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Re: Why Khan?

I don't know. We're all used to the idea of Cumberbatch being Khan that I'm fairly sure our reaction to him being a white guy is played out. We've had a year to go through "Cumberbatch isn't Indian." "Neither was Ricardo Montalban." "How dare you go there! Your mother!!" Really, even if the movie did make it clear he was Khan, there'd be some grumblings from the Never Happy Crowd but I don't think it would be far beyond that.
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Old March 3 2013, 09:55 AM   #98
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Re: Why Khan?

Yeah, it's Khanfounding.
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Old March 3 2013, 10:16 AM   #99
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Re: Why Khan?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I don't know. We're all used to the idea of Cumberbatch being Khan that I'm fairly sure our reaction to him being a white guy is played out. We've had a year to go through "Cumberbatch isn't Indian." "Neither was Ricardo Montalban." "How dare you go there! Your mother!!" Really, even if the movie did make it clear he was Khan, there'd be some grumblings from the Never Happy Crowd but I don't think it would be far beyond that.
I don't know about that. Never underestimate the power of righteous fan rage. Hell, I'd be ranting just for the sake of it....

Seriously though, I'm sure the film will be awesome. Cumby will do a great job, Khan or no.
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Old March 3 2013, 12:46 PM   #100
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Re: Why Khan?

With the possibility of White British Khan looming, I made this handy comparison:

I think CumberKhan would fit in perfectly
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Old March 3 2013, 01:13 PM   #101
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Re: Why Khan?

Man, Kirstie Alley was so much hotter as Saavik.

Only one of those that bugs me is Simon Pegg. He's a kinda funny original character but he doesn't really resemble Scotty at all, who was pretty calm in TOS. Hope he tones it down in this outing.

...and I still think Cumberbatch is playing John Harrison. I don't see the point of deceit at this stage.
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Old March 3 2013, 02:48 PM   #102
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Re: Why Khan?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Only one of those that bugs me is Simon Pegg. He's a kinda funny original character but he doesn't really resemble Scotty at all, who was pretty calm in TOS. Hope he tones it down in this outing.
Simon Pegg wants Scotty to be a more serious character in the vein of TOS, but Abrams and his cohorts insist on making him a purely comedic character.

And really, out of that above list, the only case of recasting that was questionable was Zefram Cochrane. Don't get me wrong, James Cromwell was perfect for the role, though he was older than canon said the character should have been at that point. Then again, Braga and Moore didn't want to be slavish to what was established about him in TOS and at the early stages of planning had even considered making the character a woman.
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Old March 3 2013, 03:38 PM   #103
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Re: Why Khan?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Man, Kirstie Alley was so much hotter as Saavik.

Only one of those that bugs me is Simon Pegg. He's a kinda funny original character but he doesn't really resemble Scotty at all, who was pretty calm in TOS. Hope he tones it down in this outing.

...and I still think Cumberbatch is playing John Harrison. I don't see the point of deceit at this stage.
Calm? He was almost as excitable as McCoy or Chekov!!! Especially if his engines or girlfriend was involved.
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Old March 3 2013, 04:16 PM   #104
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Re: Why Khan?

He could definitely get excitable and passionate but Scotty was never a manic character in TOS. Even the movies where he was more of a buffoon, the character was pretty chilled out.
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Old March 3 2013, 04:18 PM   #105
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Re: Why Khan?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Man, Kirstie Alley was so much hotter as Saavik.
Amen.

We should also note that the Trills changed their look for the better between TNG and DS9 . . . .
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