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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old December 9 2013, 01:03 PM   #436
NightJim
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Hunters

Ha that episode I remembered was the very next one. It's name fooled me.

Man that Harry b-story was pretty damn boring. "Did my mummy write to me?" Jesus Harry, it's no wonder you can't get laid.

I love the final Janeway solution. Outnumbered? Sic a blackhole on them. She's getting a quite the regular hard ass now. She might have set out to follow Starfleet rules, but she's reallyall about keeping the crew together now. It's pretty awesome.

And after last week's tease we now have the Hirogen. I'm not sure about them. They come across like a bad Trek copy of the Predator. Doesn't really sell their hunting at all. They have superior firepower, but no real skill or tactics to back them up. It's a poor start to what could have been a good enemy.

Also, with the satellite network, I guess the idea is that the Hirogen just co-opted them like Voyager was trying, and anyone using them deserves destroying. But what about outside their territory? The implication is that the Hirogen could be an enemy for the rest of the run, since they're so territorial over the network. I'm can't quite voice why this bugs me so much.

That said, I do like Janeway's actions accidentally destroy the whole array. I hope that when the reach the next one in line they try and reboot it, since we're told they just shut down, but I doubt it's covered.
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Old December 9 2013, 06:35 PM   #437
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

For me the problem with the Hirogen was that I just never gave a damn about their boring culture. Shoot me for saying it, but I even found the Kazon more interesting.
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Old December 9 2013, 07:35 PM   #438
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Based on this episode alone, I agree with you. I nearly wrote that they come across as a another attempt to go at the same concept as the Kazon, but from the other end, and the writers went too far with it.
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Old December 9 2013, 07:54 PM   #439
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

The Kazon were an insulting allegory for the LA gang problems of the time, meanwhile the Hirogen were an insulting homage to Predator.

Well, I suppose since they were both very insulting, they are kinda the same.
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Old December 9 2013, 08:11 PM   #440
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Hunters
I happen to really like the Hirogen, whom I've always seen as representing what the Jem'Hadar would be if they weren't a 'slave race' for the Founders, and Hunters is a nice way to truly introduce them and their culture after they were 'teased' in Message in a Bottle. However, the thing that really makes this ep work for me is the subplot involving the crew receiving letters from home. Voyager often gets criticized for not having character development, but episodes like this really dispel that myth, especially when it comes to characters like Janeway, Tom, B'Elanna, and Seven. Harry also gets a bit of character focus, although he does come across as a bit too overeager and slightly pushy.
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Old December 20 2013, 02:49 PM   #441
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Prey

I liked it. Probably the best Hirogen episode yet, and having them face off against a member of Species 8472 really sets them apart and for once shows how bad ass they can be. Though the fact the only one we spend any real time was played by The Candyman probably helped.

I also liked that finally Seven goes too far, and they address Janeway has let her get away with some some serious shit. She's supremely pragmatic, and finally pushes the Captain too far. The fact she stands up to the Captain instead of just taking the rap on the knuckles was great too.

Seven at the end of this episode is almost on the path to villainy, and that could have made a great double bluff, introduce a character as a new member of the crew, and as she finds her own individuality realises that the concept of a Chain of Command goes against that, and doesn't agree with it.

The one thing I didn't like was her assertion that Janeway was scared, then Janeway didn't argue that. Her reaction came across like Seven hit the nail on the head, and I don't believe that for a second.
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Old December 22 2013, 06:45 PM   #442
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Retrospect.

God Damn, we can't even have one episode with Seven being out of favour, as we cut forward a few weeks and Janeway's willing to give her a little leeway.

An interesting premise, which seems like a Seven episode, but then you realise it's all about the Doctor losing his damn mind. Which is interesting since he's trying to be a councillor. The ending was great, and it was nicely open about what actually happened, but overall it was alright.
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Old December 22 2013, 09:44 PM   #443
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

WTF did the Kazon have to do with LA gangs? They were modeled after nomadic war tribes, like ancient Mongolian warlords, not modern street gangs.

The Hirogen were a decent idea but very poorly planned out. The stuff they do later in the series is really stupid and they were never given real depth or any real definition to the extent of their power base.
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Old December 22 2013, 10:47 PM   #444
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

I usually try to check my facts before I call someone a liar.

The idea for the Kazon started to be conceived during secretive development meetings between Rick Berman, Michael Piller and Jeri Taylor, from which Star Trek: Voyager began to be created. (A Vision of the Future - Star Trek: Voyager) The series' co-creators originally conceived of the Kazon as contemporary Los Angeles street gangs. Jeri Taylor recalled, "We felt with the Kazon we needed to address the tenor of our times and what [...] was happening in our cities and recognizing a source of danger and social unrest. We wanted to do that metaphorically." (Captains' Logs Supplemental - The Unauthorized Guide to the New Trek Voyages, p. 151) One factor in this analogy was that the trio wanted to have in-fighting between the alien "gangs". Michael Piller commented, "Our intention was to create a sort of disorganized anarchy, them-against-them as much as them-against-us." (Captains' Logs Supplemental - The Unauthorized Guide to the New Trek Voyages, p. 161)
And it goes on...

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kazon
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Old December 23 2013, 02:15 AM   #445
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

I cannot imagine anyone living in LA watching the Kazon for the first time thinking, oh wow.. this is a metaphor for the gang problem here.

And thank goodness for that, that would have been utterly lame.
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Old December 23 2013, 05:04 AM   #446
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Remember the Drazi on Babylon 5?

Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple! Green! Purple!

The Crips and the Bloods would have laughed their asses off.
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Old December 23 2013, 05:43 AM   #447
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Yes because apparently all deep seated feuds and hatreds are really that simplistic

That was one of those Bab 5 embarrassing storylines that could be ignored in favor of whatever B stories swirled around it.
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Old December 23 2013, 06:23 AM   #448
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

Apparently that was written at the last minute, Claudia broke her foot, and JMS thought she'd want a week off... But there's a feud between her and the bloke who played Garibaldi about who could be in more episodes, and she said frakk the hospital, I'm going to Babylon 5.

It was a c-story, which I thought was a hell of lot more exciting than a lot of their A-stories.
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Old December 23 2013, 06:25 AM   #449
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

So what was the A story in that ep..

Too lazy to look. I do remember now Ivanova hobbling in a cast.
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Old December 23 2013, 06:35 AM   #450
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Re: Voyager again, for the first time

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
WTF did the Kazon have to do with LA gangs? They were modeled after nomadic war tribes, like ancient Mongolian warlords, not modern street gangs.
If they were based on Mongolians, I would certainly hope they're be smarter than formerly oppressed gun totting morons that shoot each other for power, territory or just to be a gang member. Mongolians were powerful conquerors, the Kazon didn't factually have claim on anything.

teacake wrote: View Post
Yes because apparently all deep seated feuds and hatreds are really that simplistic
Well, what exactly were the Bloods and Crips fighting over anyway?
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