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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 3 2013, 02:59 AM   #31
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Who were the main characters?

Yeah, but who was mentioned in the Nena song?
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Old March 3 2013, 05:26 AM   #32
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Re: Who were the main characters?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Wrong. Extras can have dialogue, happens all the time. Especially common in Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies and Russell T. Davies Doctor Who.
Uhm... no.

An "extra" is a specific type of performer, also called "background actors." These actors, by union rules, can have no dialogue what-so-ever. They, therefore, receive a lesser rate of pay than speaking actors and no on-screen credit. Someone who has even a single line of dialogue is, by definition, not an extra. Extras are the only performs who can, under certain limited circumstances, be non-union. That's why those who get "walk on" roles -- like Prince (now King) Abdullah of Jordan on Voyager -- never have a line of dialogue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_(actor)
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Old March 3 2013, 01:05 PM   #33
DalekJim
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Re: Who were the main characters?

Uh, Wikipedia? Really?

The term "extra" isn't even an official term used in the industry. I assure you that people like "You mess with Spidey, you mess with New York!" guy are seen as and referred to as extras within the business.
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Old March 3 2013, 01:33 PM   #34
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Who were the main characters?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Uh, Wikipedia? Really?

The term "extra" isn't even an official term used in the industry. I assure you that people like "You mess with Spidey, you mess with New York!" guy are seen as and referred to as extras within the business.
Can you cite any sources to back up what you're saying? If Wikipedia's so bad, what sources do you have that are better?
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Old March 3 2013, 02:11 PM   #35
JoeZhang
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Re: Who were the main characters?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Uh, Wikipedia? Really?

The term "extra" isn't even an official term used in the industry. I assure you that people like "You mess with Spidey, you mess with New York!" guy are seen as and referred to as extras within the business.
Completely and utter bunk - until it got merged into SAG, they even had their own union called the Screen Extras Guild. Although the term 'background player' is now standard.

As for the fact that you think that 'extras' cover a range of roles - Albert (2008) notes that the difference between an extra and day player is the day player gets a line and is therefore bumped to a higher rate. Above that is the 'under-5' who is someone who gets five lines or less. Hollywood Unknowns: A History of Extras, Bit Players, and Stand-Ins by Slide (2012) indicates the same categories.

More specifically if we look at the trade literature of the time such as Billboard, they use the same distinctions when discussing pay and condition changes.

That Sulu and others were extras in the sense you use the word is nonsense.

Last edited by JoeZhang; March 3 2013 at 03:39 PM. Reason: typo *not* > *now*
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Old March 3 2013, 02:50 PM   #36
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Re: Who were the main characters?

There really isn't much of an official distinction going on between extras and those with one line, it all depends on the person's individual contract and will vary from production company to production company. On a film set, the guy in the corner who says "Aye sir!" would be considered an extra by the entire crew.

I'm not gonna passionately get in to an argument that Sulu is in fact NOT an extra but actually a "bit part" or whatever. The point is that he was in no way a main character and got less material than the one shot guest stars of the week would get. I'll change my argument to being that he was little more than an extra if we can get remotely back on topic.

Last edited by DalekJim; March 3 2013 at 04:00 PM.
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Old March 3 2013, 03:37 PM   #37
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Re: Who were the main characters?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
There really isn't much of an official distinction going on between extras and those with one line, it all depends on the person's individual contract and will vary from production company to production company.
OK it is clear at this stage you are a bullshitter, you've got to stop talking about things it is increasingly clear you know nothing about like you are some sort of authority. There is a very clear distinction between the two (especially within a US context) and it has nothing to do with 'individual contracts'
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Old March 3 2013, 03:42 PM   #38
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Re: Who were the main characters?

Wow, how rude and obnoxious can somebody even get?

I am from Britain, have a university education in film and have been on film sets. Sometimes a director will just... give an extra a line right then and there. It amazes me how aggressive people can get regarding topics they have zero knowledge about. You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion.

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
it has nothing to do with 'individual contracts'
It has everything to do with their contract with the studio!? That's how the industry like.... works?
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Old March 3 2013, 03:52 PM   #39
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Re: Who were the main characters?

It amazes me how aggressive people can get regarding topics they have zero knowledge about. You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion.
So why don't you see to know about national agreements in regards to the different categories of actor who might be on a set?

As for having a film degree - big deal, you have a undergraduate degree it means you know not very much about a range of subjects, it doesn't make you an expert in any sense. If we wanted to play that game, I'd just turn to my right and ask the wife - who actually *is* an expert in this area.


DalekJim wrote: View Post

It has everything to do with their contract!? That's how the industry like.... works?
Wow... go away and do some reading about how contracts work in the TV industry for background and day players (especially in the US which is what we are discussing), then come back and you'll be able to construct this fantasy a little more convincingly.

I'm not cruel however, I'll give you some terms to search for "Walk-on 1, walk-on 2" which are specific to the UK industry.
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Old March 3 2013, 03:56 PM   #40
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Re: Who were the main characters?

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Wow... go away .
Pretty odd how you justify this to yourself. You've walked in to an otherwise polite and calm discussion, spouted nonsense about a topic you obviously know nothing about and combined it with a level of rudeness that makes me unwilling to engage with you in conversation.
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Old March 3 2013, 03:57 PM   #41
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Re: Who were the main characters?

Regardless of this current subject - haven't you been told before about misquoting people?
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Old March 3 2013, 04:05 PM   #42
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Re: Who were the main characters?

I am not going to indulge you in the level of needless confrontation and attention you require, so consider your efforts wasted.
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Old March 3 2013, 04:31 PM   #43
1001001
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Re: Who were the main characters?

Both of you, please knock it off.

Thanks.

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Old March 3 2013, 10:17 PM   #44
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Re: Who were the main characters?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I am from Britain, have a university education in film and have been on film sets. Sometimes a director will just... give an extra a line right then and there. It amazes me how aggressive people can get regarding topics they have zero knowledge about. You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion.

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
it has nothing to do with 'individual contracts'
It has everything to do with their contract with the studio!? That's how the industry like.... works?
Look, I don't know anything about the film industry in Great Britain. But with regards to the US film industry, what you are saying is just factually wrong.

There is a very important, very clearly defined, and very strongly enforced distinction between an "extra" and a "day player" or any other actor with even so much as one line of dialogue. An extra is expressly prohibited, by contact between the studios and the union (SAG), from having any dialogue what-so-ever. That is what makes an extra an extra. At least in the United States. That's why they're allowed to be paid much less than any other type of actor.

If a director were to do as you suggest, and decide on-set to give an extra a line of dialogue, it would necessarily result in a change of their status and require paying a higher rate for their services. It's considered "upgrading" the background actor.

I linked to the Wikipedia article because it is a simple, clear, concise summary of a lot of legalese. But if you want a more concrete source, here is the complete text of the SAG Basic Agreement that is signed by all signatory studios -- all 1,022 pages of it:

http://www.sagaftra.org/files/sag/20...lagreement.pdf

Extras/background performers are rather clearly defined in it. Of particular interest is this excerpt from page 206, which covers the fact that it is prohibited for extras to speak lines written in the script:

Except as above provided, no background actor hired as such may be employed for script lines on location; and no background actor hired as such may be employed for script lines for work at the studio on the same day as the day on which he was employed as a background actor.
And then this excerpt, from further down the same page, which covers the situation you describe -- a director giving an extra a line that wasn't originally in the script:

A background actor hired as such may speak non-script lines, in which case the background actor shall be signed off as a background actor and employed as a day performer.
In other words, if I make up a line on the spot that I want in the scene, and give it to an extra, the extra now legally becomes a day player and must be paid as such. If the line was originally in the script, I can't ever give it to an extra unless there are extraordinary circumstances, such as a previously hired actor not showing up for work, because I'm expected to have hired appropriately-compensated actors ahead of time for everything in the script.

And, FWIW, as of the date of this post, the minimum daily rate for a day player in television is $872. The minimum daily rate for a background actor is $150. So, yeah, the distinction makes a big difference.
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Old March 3 2013, 11:21 PM   #45
A beaker full of death
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Re: Who were the main characters?

The term "ND" - for "no dialogue" - is also used.
If the argument here is that the gang of four were extras, that's nonsense.
Pretty much any character with a name is by definition not an extra.
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