No Fear of Death?

[Metryq]

^^^

Social behaviors were often genetically programmed into species to help them survive, he said, with altruism—
self-destructive behavior performed for the benefit of others—bred into their bones.

Ah, now I see why it was McCoy. Of the landing party, this gene was bred into their Bones, too.

[Nero's Shadow]

That's starfleet training for you, Kobiashi Maru is a test that's also as we all know a fear in the face of death !!! I'm thinking space would be very dangerous and getting killed or dying would be a high risk in starfleet.

[Shawnster]

Metryq wrote:

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^^^

Ah, now I see why it was McCoy. Of the landing party, this gene was bred into their Bones, too.

After that comment, I find your avatar quite appropriate. :facepalm

[Metryq]

Shawnster wrote:

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After that comment, I find your avatar quite appropriate. :facepalm

Maybe I should have used the alias Pun-isher. My avatar is derived from a graphic I made for a Web game many moons ago. The game was created for a kids' camp Website, and the cave wall had figures reminiscent of the art at Lascaux, only showing people doing Summer camp activities. Since the artists often "signed" their work with a hand print (outlined by mouth-blown "airbrushing"), I decided to scan my hand as a signature.

***
Back to the topic at hand—

I want to die in my sleep like grampa, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

[T'Girl]

Nero's Shadow wrote:

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Kobiashi Maru is a test that's also as we all know a fear in the face of death

The people being tested knew they were in a simulator.

[Nero's Shadow]

T'Girl wrote:

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The people being tested knew they were in a simulator.

Yep good practice for them the no win scenario always made them understand the fear of dying and death !!!

[Mr. Laser Beam]

T'Girl wrote:

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The people being tested knew they were in a simulator.

Quite. That, along with the essential meaninglessness of a "no-win scenario" (in Treklit, haven't there been cadets who have beaten it without cheating?) makes the value of the test questionable at best.

[Metryq]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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the essential meaninglessness of a "no-win scenario" (in Treklit, haven't there been cadets who have beaten it without cheating?) makes the value of the test questionable at best.

Only if the subjects know going in that "this is the famous Kobayashi Maru test." Ideally, the test should be completely unexpected so that the subject is not even aware he is being tested. So, Kobayashi Maru would be only one no-win scenario.

(Technically, the scenario shown in the movie is flawed because the Neutral Zone between Klingon and the Federation was imposed by the Organians and is not a no-fly zone. The Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Romulan Star Empire is another matter.)

It all depends on how one defines "win." Did Spock "win" his test at the end of TWOK? I highly recommend the live-action SPACE BATTLESHIP YAMATO (2010) even for people who are not fans of the '70s anime. Main character Kodai repeatedly faces "no-win" situations throughout the movie. At one point he "cheats," just like Kirk. The only time he did not "win" was when he ran away—but even that situation put him in the right place at the right time.

[T'Girl]

Metryq wrote:

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the Neutral Zone between Klingon and the Federation was imposed by the Organians

The Organians never impose a NZ between the Federation and the Empire.

[Metryq]

T'Girl wrote:

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The Organians never impose a NZ between the Federation and the Empire.

There is a treaty in the Franz Joseph TECHNICAL MANUAL describing the zone ("750 parsecs in width"). Although that is not "canon," it is a logical extension of the episode, since the Federation and the Klingons knock heads in later episodes (e.g. "Day of the Dove", "Elaan of Troyius"). Obviously the Organians did not continue to immobilize Federation and Klingon vessels everywhere, even though that was Ayelborne's original statement.

The "Organian Peace Treaty" is mentioned specifically in "The Trouble with Tribbles." Although, it is interesting that the bar fight could even take place (illustrating just how much hot water Scotty was in). I guess the Organians have nothing against drunken brawls, but draw the line at ulama and anything more intense.

[T'Girl]

The Trouble with Tribbles spoke of a disputed territory that both the Federation and the Empire both claimed. If there were in fact a clearly drawn neutral zone between the two, there how could there be any disputed territory?

[Metryq]

T'Girl wrote:

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If there were in fact a clearly drawn neutral zone between the two, there how could there be any disputed territory?

(Sigh.) Does this really need to be spelled out? It seemed clear enough from "The Trouble With Tribbles." From the Franz Joseph TECHNICAL MANUAL:

Condition 6:

We are aware that, within the Neutral Zone, there are many planetary sub-cultures in various levels of evolutionary development which could benefit from the advanced cultures of the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets. To this end, Organia will permit such peaceful development and, in each specific case, will award such rights to the party which demonstrates it can most efficiently develop the planet to the benefit of its social systems.

And from the opening scene of the episode:

CHEKOV: Under terms of the Organian Peace Treaty, one side or the other must prove it can develop the planet most efficiently.

Or to borrow one of Bruce Lee's lines from ENTER THE DRAGON: "The art of fighting without fighting." The Organians are forcing the two powers to compete in a productive manner.

[T'Girl]

Metryq wrote:

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(Sigh.) Does this really need to be spelled out?

(Sigh) It probably shouldn't, but I'll do it for you anyway.

The tech manual is not canon, just like print fiction in general is not.

There was nothing in The Trouble with Tribble to indicate that the Organians ever created a Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Empire.

There is a treaty in the Franz Joseph TECHNICAL MANUAL describing the zone ("750 parsecs in width").

Picard stated that the Federation in the 24th centruy was spread across 8,000 light years, The FJ tech manual shows the Federation in the 23rd century as a disc of unknown thickness, that's nearly 31,000 light years across. And that both the Romulan and the Klingon NZs are over 2,400 light years wide.

Condition 6:

Condition 2: No armed hostilities may take place place between the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love FJ's tech manual, but it is just a piece of print fiction.

[Shawnster]

When, during the Kobyashi Maru simulation, Savvik orders the Enterprise to enter Klingon space, Spock reports "we are now in violation of treaty..."

It's been assumed/implied (and quite logically) that he was referring to the Organian Peace Treaty.

[Metryq]

T'Girl wrote:

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The tech manual is not canon, just like print fiction in general is not.

And the opening scene to "Tribbles"? That's not canon? The Organian Peace Treaty is invoked again over the Klingons using K7 for shore leave. Or perhaps we should assume the treaty applies to Sherman's planet and K7 only, and nowhere else.