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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 20 2013, 08:57 AM   #16
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

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I don't like it when things are different.
Spoken like a true Trek fan?

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Old February 20 2013, 08:58 AM   #17
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

I'm inclined to say yes as I feel Star Trek belongs on the small screen... however 7 seasons was enough and without the films we would not have had First Contact which was so worth it.
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Old February 20 2013, 03:46 PM   #18
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

It was not a mistake to make the move to the big screen for TNG. I would even argue that it wasn't a question of whether or not it was the right time. What bugs me about all the TNG films (even First Contact, which I love), is that the characters aren't who they were on the show.

Picard was never a gung-ho action hero, and the dynamic between him and Dr. Crusher is eliminated completely. Hell, we barely see much of Dr. Crusher at all through four movies. Data should NEVER have been given his emotion chip. He was much more fun as the emotionless android constantly trying to understand what it is to be human. And whose idea was it to ignore the team of Data and Geordi, one of the best friendships of the TV series? Generations is the only one of the four movies that really acknowledges it! Meanwhile, TNG movie era Troi is no longer the Counselor Troi from the TV show. Now she's just.... Marina Sirtis.

About the only main character the movies get right is Worf.... and he'd moved on to be a crew member aboard Deep Space Nine by the time of First Contact, the only one of the post-Generations sequels to give a rational explanation for why he'd still be tagging along. Well, Riker pretty much seems like Riker, so I guess he'll do also. But only getting two characters right? That's bad.

Even when the original six TOS films were at their least impressive, I thought the main cast always felt true to who their charcters were.
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Old February 20 2013, 07:26 PM   #19
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

Caligula wrote: View Post
It was not a mistake to make the move to the big screen for TNG. I would even argue that it wasn't a question of whether or not it was the right time. What bugs me about all the TNG films (even First Contact, which I love), is that the characters aren't who they were on the show.

Picard was never a gung-ho action hero, and the dynamic between him and Dr. Crusher is eliminated completely. Hell, we barely see much of Dr. Crusher at all through four movies. Data should NEVER have been given his emotion chip. He was much more fun as the emotionless android constantly trying to understand what it is to be human. And whose idea was it to ignore the team of Data and Geordi, one of the best friendships of the TV series? Generations is the only one of the four movies that really acknowledges it! Meanwhile, TNG movie era Troi is no longer the Counselor Troi from the TV show. Now she's just.... Marina Sirtis.

About the only main character the movies get right is Worf.... and he'd moved on to be a crew member aboard Deep Space Nine by the time of First Contact, the only one of the post-Generations sequels to give a rational explanation for why he'd still be tagging along. Well, Riker pretty much seems like Riker, so I guess he'll do also. But only getting two characters right? That's bad.


Even when the original six TOS films were at their least impressive, I thought the main cast always felt true to who their charcters were.
Agreed. Almost none of the TNG movies play to the strengths of the tv series at all; whereas the TOS movies managed to feel like you were at least watching the same guys from the tv show.

(I always found it ironic that TOS on television was very much centered on the 'power trio' at the expense of the other characters, but the movies gave the rest of the ensemble a bigger share of the pie... by contrast, TNG always had a very strong ensemble feel on tv, but the movies narrowed the focus considerably to just two or three characters. )
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Old February 21 2013, 01:09 AM   #20
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

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Now, I should start by pointing out that I know from a business perspective it certainly wasn't a bad idea. The buzz around Star Trek in 1994 was huge, and the franchise was (arguably) at it's pop culture zenith. From a dollars and cents point-of-view, shifting the TNG cast to the big screen was a no brainer.

However, with the benefit of hindsight... I suppose as long as they were profitable (the bottom line) then there was no harm in it. By most accounts Generations, First Contact and Insurrection were all achievers. Nemesis didn't do so well at the box office (so by most measures that one was a failure), but has probably long since broke even on DVD and rebroadcast deals.

But is it really? Certainly, it took the TOS crew coming back (albeit with different actors in the roles) to revitalise the franchise as a movie series after Nemesis nearly killed it stone dead. One can't help but wonder if the movies should always have been about Kirk, Spock, and the rest. Harve Bennett famously had a plan inthe early 1990s to circumvent the aging original cast while still keeping the classic original characters on the big screen, but the time just wasn't right for such beloved characters and institutions to be recast in such a way. We wouldn't blink an eye-lid at it now, of course, but the potential uproar in fandom at the idea back then was enough to scare Paramount executives away from Bennett's plan.

From the viewpoint of a fan of TNG, we've also got the factor of the TNG series ending on the perfect note, and the four films effectively undoing the good will that All Good Things... was built on. If TNG had ended with that episode and then disappeared into reruns, I think it'd be more fondly remembered than it is by the general public. We as fans still give it the thumbsup, but there's a perception, rightly or wrongly, that a string of moderate films followed by one that bombed horribly at the box office effectively (and retrospectively) taints TNG forevermore. After those movies, TNG didn't have nearly as much integrity as it did on tv.

There's another factor, too. Between 1987 and 1991, there were two Star Trek production teams. The Movie Guys (Bennett, Ralph Winter, et al) who supervised movies based around the 23rd century and the original series characters; and The TV Guys (Berman, Piller, et al) who were focused on TNG Trek within the realm of television. Now, it had been proven that Star Trek could co-exist with itself this way, with one team working on movies and another on tv. But in 1994 with the elevation of the TNG cast to the big screen, the two dovetailed. Rick Berman was now chief of 'the Star Trek brand' in general, both movies and on television. One man can not supervised three television productions plus a series of bi-annual movies without spreading himself a little thin, and I think this is exactly what happened. Berman was over-stretched, and the overall quality of Star Trek took a dip as a result. Certainly I am of the belief that one of the reasons the 2009 movie was so strong was because all energies were focused towards it. There is no television Trek to suckle away from interest in the movies. It's like the early 1980s all over again, when TOS was hugely profitable on movie screens because it was alone and the only ticket in town for fans of Star Trek.

I'm in two minds. I love TNG, I love that cast. I just don't think they were adaptable for the big screen. TNG was cut from a different cloth to TOS, and in order to tell TNG movies they had to essentially sacrifice a great deal of what made tv TNG so unique within and of itself.
Very interesting topic and a well-organized post.

That said, I think it was a mistake for the production team that did the series in 1994, became screenwriters and executive producers of a movie. Gene Roddenberry ran into this problem in 1978 when he adapted a Phase II script for his new television show into a full-length feature film. Since we are setting aside the fact that Star Trek was successful commercially in that film, creatively it is was as a stinker, despite a strong director and all the money and resources that Star Trek didn't have in 1966. Harve Bennett was brought in to write Star Trek II, and watched all the episodes, looked over the bible on the show, and came up with an iconic movie that is considered the best of the Trek films to date.

Next Generation could have done the same thing. I think the show, creatively, was at its lowest point in 1994. It's apex was 1988-1991. I don't believe that it was as easy as they thought to do two shows at the same time. There may have been some burnout. And it would've been nice if Berman had the muscle to tell the execs where to get off sometimes. He has talked very openly about how the creative team had demands placed on them by the studio and it led to a watered-down product, namely Star Trek: Generations. The Temporal Cold War in Enterprise was another situation where the studio stuck their heads in creatively.

Deep Space Nine hit its stride as the movies were failing to do anything creatively at the box office. I think the fans were saturated by Trek in the 1990s. It has made it hard to penetrate the universe as a new fan because of the successful run of 3 series and 4 movies in that time frame. So it's important to realize that the brand was over-extended and I think it did lead to some less than stellar performances for the movies. Even though the movies all made their money back, press at the time was horrific, both in evaluating the commercial success and the critics judging the movies. Nemesis actually had the most favorable reviews of the TNG movies, and it was not widely watched. The day of Trek was just over.

Star Trek (2009) successful because it was fun and because it was like nothing seen from Trek in a very long time in terms of visuals and pace. The brand was off the air for 4 years and I think that caused the fans to want more Trek after they had fear it would be gone. It caused me to re-sample the universe, personally, and I am stronger fan of the series than I ever was in the 1990s or 2000s.
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Old February 21 2013, 01:36 AM   #21
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

Caligula wrote: View Post
It was not a mistake to make the move to the big screen for TNG. I would even argue that it wasn't a question of whether or not it was the right time. What bugs me about all the TNG films (even First Contact, which I love), is that the characters aren't who they were on the show.

Picard was never a gung-ho action hero, and the dynamic between him and Dr. Crusher is eliminated completely. Hell, we barely see much of Dr. Crusher at all through four movies. Data should NEVER have been given his emotion chip. He was much more fun as the emotionless android constantly trying to understand what it is to be human. And whose idea was it to ignore the team of Data and Geordi, one of the best friendships of the TV series? Generations is the only one of the four movies that really acknowledges it! Meanwhile, TNG movie era Troi is no longer the Counselor Troi from the TV show. Now she's just.... Marina Sirtis.

About the only main character the movies get right is Worf.... and he'd moved on to be a crew member aboard Deep Space Nine by the time of First Contact, the only one of the post-Generations sequels to give a rational explanation for why he'd still be tagging along. Well, Riker pretty much seems like Riker, so I guess he'll do also. But only getting two characters right? That's bad.

Even when the original six TOS films were at their least impressive, I thought the main cast always felt true to who their charcters were.
I agree with some of what you are saying. It was the Picard and Data show and every other relationship is missing, with exeception to small moments. However, I think it was a good thing, not the impetus of getting the chip, for Data's character to experience emotion. It made everything new again. For instance, he talks in Devil's Due about not knowing fear for his performance as Scrooge in A Christmas Carol. Juxtapose that conversation with Data telling Picard about the fear he felt as they encountered the Borg in First Contact.

Geordi and Data have small moments.
-- In Insurrection, when they talk about destroying Data, Geordi, sitting at the Helm station, turns to Picard and looks completely terrified.
-- When Data awakens in Insurrection after being captured by Picard and fixed by LaForge, he doesn't say "Commander LaForge? Captain?" He says "Geordi? Captain?"
-- In Nemesis, after they divert to the Kolaris (Sp?) system, Geordi turns to Data and says "What do you think, Data? Long lost relative?"
--In Nemesis, Geordi discusses with Data what B-4 would become if Data went ahead with a memory download.
-- Data says "Counselor Troi, please assume command. Geordi, come with me," just before Data leaves the Enterprise. There is a look between Geordi and Data that wouldn't be there if they weren't friends.

As for Picard and Crusher, outside of Picard talking about Shinzon and his younger self in Nemesis, you are on point, they don't resemble the same characters.

Riker and Troi have good moments in re-igniting their romance. Troi is used to know what Shinzon is thinking in Nemesis.

You are on-point about Picard, however. He's Bruce Willis in these movies, especially First Contact, which is part of the reason why I don't like the film. Insurrection is my favorite of the Picard movies. He uses his mouth, and not shouting across a force-field laced rock-face, to get Golna to help him. He uses his brain to realize he needs another way in to get ahold of Data. "He can fly a ship. He can anticipate tactical strategies. Clearly, his brain is functioning. We've seen how he would respond to threats, I wonder how he would repond to...Mr. Worf do you know Gilbert and Sullivan? Data was rehearsing a performance of HMS Pinafore right before he left."

Generations was right after the 7th season, and that's where the characters were at the time. There was no lag, no room for growth, between the movies.

I think people pick at these movies too much. I think pushing Picard as an action-hero was a mistake. Kirk didn't do as much action as Picard did. He personally stopped Soran, fought the Borg by himself, killed Ru'afo with a phaser rifle in his hand, and stabbed Shinzon to death. Data had something to do with the end of First Contact and Nemesis, as well. But Picard is the one in sweat, blood, and tears throughout these films.
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Old February 21 2013, 02:13 AM   #22
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

3/4 of TNG movies sucked.

I would gladly erase all TNG movies from existence, including First Contact, if that meant the series ended with AGT instead of Nemesis.
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Old February 21 2013, 05:40 PM   #23
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

^^^ I agree with this sentiment.

I would have been completely satisfied with TNG ending with AGT. Seeing more TNG at the cinema isn't something that cried out to be made.
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Old February 21 2013, 06:00 PM   #24
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
-- In Nemesis, after they divert to the Kolaris (Sp?) system, Geordi turns to Data and says "What do you think, Data? Long lost relative?"
--In Nemesis, Geordi discusses with Data what B-4 would become if Data went ahead with a memory download.
-- Data says "Counselor Troi, please assume command. Geordi, come with me," just before Data leaves the Enterprise. There is a look between Geordi and Data that wouldn't be there if they weren't friends.
In my defense, I've blocked most of Nemesis from my memory. I'd forgotten those Data/Geordi scenes entirely. Okay so, ironically, that's one thing that Nemesis gets right. That and bringing the Riker/Troi relationship to its natural conclusion.

In fact, that marriage brings to mind one thing I'm glad that got swept under the rug once TNG moved to the big screen: the Worf/Troi relationship. That made about as much sense as Chakotay/Seven of Nine.
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Old February 21 2013, 08:38 PM   #25
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

I found Generations, First Contact and Nemesis to be entertaining. I can't say the same for much of the TNG TV series. I rewatched TOS, VOY and ENT in the past two years and for the most part enjoyed them, but getting through TNG has been a real struggle.
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Old February 21 2013, 08:58 PM   #26
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
I found Generations, First Contact and Nemesis to be entertaining. I can't say the same for much of the TNG TV series. I rewatched TOS, VOY and ENT in the past two years and for the most part enjoyed them, but getting through TNG has been a real struggle.
I mostly agree. Insurrection is the TNG movie, I don't really get any joy out of, and I enjoy the other 3. I watched Enterprise and Voyager (First time watching all the way through, probably missed at least half the episodes when they aired first run) and TNG in the last year, and I mostly enjoyed Voyager and Enterprise. I didn't find it tough to get through TNG, but, there wasn't as many awesome episodes as I remember when I religiously watched every week during first run.
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Old February 21 2013, 09:24 PM   #27
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

Caligula wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
-- In Nemesis, after they divert to the Kolaris (Sp?) system, Geordi turns to Data and says "What do you think, Data? Long lost relative?"
--In Nemesis, Geordi discusses with Data what B-4 would become if Data went ahead with a memory download.
-- Data says "Counselor Troi, please assume command. Geordi, come with me," just before Data leaves the Enterprise. There is a look between Geordi and Data that wouldn't be there if they weren't friends.
In my defense, I've blocked most of Nemesis from my memory. I'd forgotten those Data/Geordi scenes entirely. Okay so, ironically, that's one thing that Nemesis gets right. That and bringing the Riker/Troi relationship to its natural conclusion.

In fact, that marriage brings to mind one thing I'm glad that got swept under the rug once TNG moved to the big screen: the Worf/Troi relationship. That made about as much sense as Chakotay/Seven of Nine.
Remember, Riker turns to Worf at the end of Insurrection and says: "Do you think when we get away from this metaphasic radiation that it will change the way we feel?"
And Worf says: "Your feelings about her have not changed since the day I met you, Commander. This place just let them out for a little fresh air." It's a tacit admission of the relationship that he didn't say that to someone else. And remember, Worf is married during that movie, dating Jadzia during First Contact, and widowed when Riker and Troi are married.
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Old February 22 2013, 05:17 PM   #28
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

Commercially it was viable.

Creatively, no - especially the first TNG movie involved murdering Kirk.
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Old February 23 2013, 03:56 AM   #29
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

I remember thinking back in '91 after seeing Star Trek VI if they were going to introduce a new movie-only crew for the Enterprise-B in Star Trek VII. Perhaps the new captain would be a young, cocky type that would remind Kirk a lot of himself when he was younger.

Well, at least I got to see the Enterprise-B in Star Trek VII...
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Old February 23 2013, 04:30 AM   #30
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Re: Was moving 'The Next Generation' over to movies a bad decision?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Caligula wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
-- In Nemesis, after they divert to the Kolaris (Sp?) system, Geordi turns to Data and says "What do you think, Data? Long lost relative?"
--In Nemesis, Geordi discusses with Data what B-4 would become if Data went ahead with a memory download.
-- Data says "Counselor Troi, please assume command. Geordi, come with me" just before Data leaves the Enterprise. There is a look between Geordi and Data that wouldn't be there if they weren't friends.
In my defense, I've blocked most of Nemesis from my memory. I'd forgotten those Data/Geordi scenes entirely. Okay so, ironically, that's one thing that Nemesis gets right. That and bringing the Riker/Troi relationship to its natural conclusion.

In fact, that marriage brings to mind one thing I'm glad that got swept under the rug once TNG moved to the big screen: the Worf/Troi relationship. That made about as much sense as Chakotay/Seven of Nine.
Remember, Riker turns to Worf at the end of Insurrection and says: "Do you think when we get away from this metaphasic radiation that it will change the way we feel?"
And Worf says: "Your feelings about her have not changed since the day I met you, Commander. This place just let them out for a little fresh air." It's a tacit admission of the relationship that he didn't say that to someone else. And remember, Worf is married during that movie, dating Jadzia during First Contact, and widowed when Riker and Troi are married.
Nemesis also had Deanna make a passing reference to her and Worf dating in their past, but it was one of many scenes that ended up being trimmed from the final cut (and it doesn't appear on the DVD missing scenes package either -- I have no idea if it was ever actually filmed, but it's definitely there in John Logan's original script).
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