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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 7 2013, 06:17 AM   #46
Anwar
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

We always had someone to talk for the Borg, in every appearance.

In "Q Who?" we had Q and Guinan to basically explain the Borg to the audience.

BOBW had Locutus.

I, Borg and Descent had Hugh and Lore.

So this notion of the Borg being some faceless foe just isn't there, since they ALWAYS had someone to explain them to the protagonists.

If the Borg hadn't been so stupidly overpowered in the first place, it would've been easier to reuse them without "ruining" them.
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Old March 9 2013, 08:58 AM   #47
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

Anwar, just to pick up on your defence of Voyager... I think Scorpion and the Raven arc were just as good as Q-Who? and BOBW. Certainly better episodes than I, Borg or Descent. I have no problem with a superior enemy in Species*insert number*, there is bound to be something bigger than us all. The Borg did start to get boring when they gained "enemy of the week" status, and they became much less scary, having Tuvok and co purposefully assimilated was the pinacle of this. I think "Voyager Borg" would be much better thought of if they'd have done Scorpion, made Raven into a two-parter without the Borg-Queen nonsense from Dark Frontier, and left it at that.
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Old March 9 2013, 05:59 PM   #48
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

There were complaints about the freaking Borg corpse in "Blood Fever". I don't know why, but folks were just ready to tear into the show for the most minor things.
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Old March 11 2013, 07:54 AM   #49
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

Anwar wrote: View Post
There were complaints about the freaking Borg corpse in "Blood Fever". I don't know why, but folks were just ready to tear into the show for the most minor things.
That and the other episode that had the escaped Borg (I'm not too familiar with Voyager, I think they were at the end of season 3) were good lead-ins to Scorpion IMO. Spooky mysteries, which is how the Borg should be.

I would never "tear into the show" but there seemed to be some excellent episodes (the surviving dinosaurs, the Borg episodes I mentioned, Timeless, Living Witness, Blink Of An Eye) surrounded by alot of crap.
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Old March 11 2013, 06:18 PM   #50
Anwar
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

There were two Borg episodes prior to "Scorpion": "Blood Fever" and "Unity".

Blood Fever showed us the Borg corpse at the end, indicating they were nearby.

"Unity" was great because it's events are what allowed Chakotay to tap into Seven's mind and resolve the story.

And then after that, we get to Scorpion which tied into both stories quite well. What happens?

Folks whine endlessly over how there was a single alien species more powerful than the Borg.

You just can't win. Seriously.
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Old March 12 2013, 12:17 AM   #51
tighr
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Folks whine endlessly over how there was a single alien species more powerful than the Borg.

You just can't win. Seriously.
I seem to recall having this exact same discussion with you about a year ago, where you claimed that people hated 8472 because they could defeat the Borg.

I don't think people hated 8472. I think when they were introduced, it was well done. Notwithstanding any future appearances (the San Francisco in the sky bit), their introduction merely showed us that it was possible to stand up to the Borg and win. Previous to that, we'd only seen the Borg in one-ship-at-a-time quantities (Q Who, BOBW, First Contact).
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Old March 12 2013, 04:35 AM   #52
Anwar
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

tighr wrote: View Post
I seem to recall having this exact same discussion with you about a year ago, where you claimed that people hated 8472 because they could defeat the Borg.

I don't think people hated 8472.
Tell that to guys like newtype_alpha, Temis the Vorta, Admiral Screed, etc. I've seen enough here to get the jist.

their introduction merely showed us that it was possible to stand up to the Borg and win. Previous to that, we'd only seen the Borg in one-ship-at-a-time quantities (Q Who, BOBW, First Contact).
Yes, and being able to stand up to the Borg is why the 8472 were hated. Because it made the Borg look bad that there was someone who could do that.

Hell, if Q destroyed a Borg armada folks would complain that he shouldn't be able to do that.
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Old March 12 2013, 04:40 PM   #53
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

Anwar wrote: View Post
tighr wrote: View Post
I seem to recall having this exact same discussion with you about a year ago, where you claimed that people hated 8472 because they could defeat the Borg.

I don't think people hated 8472.
Tell that to guys like newtype_alpha, Temis the Vorta, Admiral Screed, etc. I've seen enough here to get the jist.
Yes that's right, it's Admiral Screed's thread I had that discussion with you.

Here's what Screed wrote from his own thread, quoting you:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=663

AdmiralScreed wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Of course, all of VOY's creations are considered worthless but the 8472 take the cake because they destroyed the fandom/hatedom's precious illusions about the Borg.
What illusions? That the Borg were the most powerful race in the galaxy? I never said that, and you know it.

This discussion would run much more smoothly if you would actually respond to my posts, rather than ranting and spewing your nonsense about fans that dislike the Borg in Voyager.
People didn't hate 8472 for having the ability to beat the Borg; they hated how the writer's at Voyager made it possible for little ol' Voyager to consistently beat the Borg all by themselves, when it was previously depicted that a single Borg cube had the ability to lay waste to 40+ Federation starships. I don't get why you have anything against 8472.

Frankly, if I can prove you wrong on what Screed said, I'd like to hear what Newtype and Temis' opinions are on the subject.
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Old March 12 2013, 05:58 PM   #54
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

I had some free time, so I did the research. We've already quoted Screed, and here's what Newtype_Alpha has to say on the subject (again, in a thread with you):

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...9&postcount=46
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
The VOY staff did that with the 8472 storyline. Response being "They invented a species that can defeat the Borg in straight up combat, without the use of a plot contrivance! They've RUINED the Borg by showing they aren't invincible!"
AFAIK, the response was that the Borg THEMSELVES were enough of a threat that having to deal with them as an opponent had possibilities in itself. Introducing Species 8472 cheated the viewers out of the long-anticipated Borg confrontation, then conveniently resolved it by the liberal application of [tech], then bypassed it altogether the following episode by having Kes fling them safely out of Borg space.

It's not just "They made the Borg not-invincible!" It's more "They [the writers] created a race more powerful than the Borg just to create danger, then eliminated the other race, then eliminated the Borg, then went on their merry way."

That's like checking into the Bates motel, watching Norman Bates getting murdered by Jason, then watching Jason getting killed by Peter Pan, and then it's over. It's more than a letdown, you come away feeling like your eyeballs have been raped.
I only found a handful of posts by Temis that reference 8472, but none of them talk about whether or not she hates 8472 because they could defeat the Borg. We'd have to PM her and ask her (or hope she shows up here) to get her honest opinion, but based on what I've seen it seems more like she's critical of Voyager's writers for missuing the characters. The closest I could find was this one:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...72&postcount=9
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
My quatloos are on the Vorlons. No specific reason other than that I could take them seriously, something the stick-monsters of VOY never achieved.
Species 8472 were certainly capable of much more than they achieved, but Voyager's writers punted on the whole topic because they were too scared or too lazy to write good stories with the two species that they had just introduced. The idea to introduce them itself isn't a bad one, and a master race from another dimension would have been an interesting concept for a movie or even an arc on the TV show. Instead, what did we get? Two appearances on Voyager only to never be referenced again. I don't think viewers hated the Borg or 8472, I think they hated the writers for wasting great opportunities for compelling television.

What else ya got?
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Old March 13 2013, 05:35 AM   #55
Anwar
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

They hated how the writer's at Voyager made it possible for little ol' Voyager to consistently beat the Borg all by themselves, when it was previously depicted that a single Borg cube had the ability to lay waste to 40+ Federation starships. I don't get why you have anything against 8472.
The Enterprise defeated the Borg every time they engaged them in straight battle (BOBW, Descent, FC) and no one complained. They're only one crew.

AFAIK, the response was that the Borg THEMSELVES were enough of a threat that having to deal with them as an opponent had possibilities in itself. Introducing Species 8472 cheated the viewers out of the long-anticipated Borg confrontation, then conveniently resolved it by the liberal application of [tech], then bypassed it altogether the following episode by having Kes fling them safely out of Borg space.

It's not just "They made the Borg not-invincible!" It's more "They [the writers] created a race more powerful than the Borg just to create danger, then eliminated the other race, then eliminated the Borg, then went on their merry way."
Newtype is saying exactly what I've been saying: He can't stand that there was another species that could fight the Borg and we were actually shown them doing so. He wanted some big, stupid 100 part story instead of a smaller resolution (which is no different than how TNG did it!).

That's like checking into the Bates motel, watching Norman Bates getting murdered by Jason, then watching Jason getting killed by Peter Pan, and then it's over. It's more than a letdown, you come away feeling like your eyeballs have been raped.
No, it's a reminder that you're actually quite small in the food chain and every once in a while you encounter two larger predators going at it.

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
My quatloos are on the Vorlons. No specific reason other than that I could take them seriously, something the stick-monsters of VOY never
achieved.
And if the 8472 were from TNG or DS9, she wouldn't have said that.

Species 8472 were certainly capable of much more than they achieved, but Voyager's writers punted on the whole topic because they were too scared or too lazy to write good stories with the two species that they had just introduced.
No, you can't tell a bigger story when the show is about a tiny scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up.

Now, if they were allowed to drop the "lone ship" thing and gather allies and flesh out the Delta Quadrant (which the premise forbade them from doing), then there's more wiggle room.

The idea to introduce them itself isn't a bad one, and a master race from another dimension would have been an interesting concept for a movie or even an arc on the TV show. Instead, what did we get? Two appearances on Voyager only to never be referenced again.
And if the Borg were never seen again, after BOBW, no one would complain despite them only being in two stories. You just can't win.

I don't think viewers hated the Borg or 8472, I think they hated the writers for wasting great opportunities for compelling television.
They gave them "Scorpion" and got squat in return. An audience that bratty and moronic doesn't deserve anything better.

Last edited by Anwar; March 13 2013 at 05:50 AM.
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Old March 13 2013, 05:41 AM   #56
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

yousirname wrote: View Post
It seemed to me to be the antithesis of the Borg as originally conceived. I mean, yes, the Borg are indeed a single consciousness, but the way I see it, it's that very fact that makes it meaningless to speak of them (it?) occasionally controlling a single body - it controls billions of single bodies, all the time. On that account, no one body being more or less important than any other one body is pretty much the whole bit, isn't it?

I'm prepared to forgive First Contact as an individual piece for having it, because it's very, very tough to make a watchable action flick without an individual villain. But for me it marked the point where the Borg just weren't to be taken seriously anymore.
I completely agree with this. The whole "queen" bit removed all that made the borg interesting in the first place.
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Old March 16 2013, 05:33 AM   #57
Anwar
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

What, the Cybermen can have their Controllers/Kings/Queens and the Daleks can have their Emperors/Davos, but the Borg can't?
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Old March 17 2013, 04:08 PM   #58
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

Anwar wrote: View Post
What, the Cybermen can have their Controllers/Kings/Queens and the Daleks can have their Emperors/Davos, but the Borg can't?

different shows, different races, different rules.
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Old March 17 2013, 05:34 PM   #59
Anwar
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

The Cybermen are arguably the inspiration for the Borg, and the Daleks have that whole "Super Dangerous species" thing going on for them.

So how exactly are the rules different?
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Old March 17 2013, 07:03 PM   #60
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Re: Are the Borg the perfect enemy?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Cybermen are arguably the inspiration for the Borg, and the Daleks have that whole "Super Dangerous species" thing going on for them.

So how exactly are the rules different?
I'd agree the rules aren't different. But the Daleks and Cybermen having leaders is just as annoying as the Borg Queen.
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