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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 18 2013, 12:35 PM   #1
Dal Rassak
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problems with Damar and Kira

I really liked the character arc for Damar, but what I could not find convincing is how quickly he seemed to accommodate himself to working with someone he despised.
There should have been more conflict between them.

Somewhere in the DS9 Companion it says that the writers thought introducing open conflict between Damar and Kira at that stage would be "a step back" in Damar's character arc. I don't see how. When he says to his reactionary friend Rusot that he used to hate her, but can no longer afford that hate, it should have been him saying that he still hates her, but can no longer afford it. And there should have been some little scene where they nearly come to blows, or something like it.
This wouldn't have diminished his character; in fact it would have made his whole attitude more convincing, to have shown him really struggling with his animosity but willing to swallow it down for the sake of patriotism.

And talking of coming to blows, the one scene in the occupation arc where they do had me screaming at the television. Much as I love Kira but she shouldn't have been able to beat him in a straight fight. I mean, I'm sure she can take care of herself in a scrap, don't get me wrong - but still she's a rather slightly built female, he's a solid-looking male.

Plus it's mentioned in "Indiscretion" that the average Cardassian has greater physical strength than the average Bajoran. Add the male/female average discrepancy on top of that, and the only way she could put him to trouble was if she'd had the element of surprise or hit him over the head with a heavy object.

So she was a freedom fighter, that mainly meant hit-and-run attacks with explosives or phasers, there'd rarely be any hand-to-hand. Damar's a professional soldier on the other hand, and I bet the Cardassian military expect their troops to do daily drills. Having her deck him like that and he doesn't even get a single blow in was ridiculously unrealistic.
I reckon it was just the writers pleasing themselves again - they just fancied the idea of Kira getting to beat up Damar and to heck with the fact it's impossible to buy...

Opinions on either point...?
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Old February 18 2013, 01:45 PM   #2
od0_ital
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

Durin' the Occupation Arc, Damar was a heavy drinker (not yet a drunk, but gettin' there) and Kira was able to take him by surprise.

Hell, I once took on a drunk Army Ranger durin' a routine part of my job, and was winnin' 'til he rammed me into the hallway wall. So, its not just trainin' or physical prowess, tactics helped too.

As for Damar still carryin' the hate for Kira...like he said, it was a luxury he couldn't afford. He had to let it go to keep his mission goin'.
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Old February 18 2013, 02:22 PM   #3
Gul Re'jal
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

I always had a problem with Kira beating the hell out of any male she fought with. Damar's not the only one. She kicked some Klingon arse, too. Not realistic, if you ask me. Once, if she's lucky, but every guy in her way?

As for hating her... If she could work with him after he killed Ziyal, he could work with her after she did nothing but being a Bajoran. There were bigger matters at stake and they couldn't let personal animosities ruin their cooperation. Maybe you're right with Damar admitting to the hatred, but he also became a politician and they are diplomatic. Being honest would serve no one but it could encourage Rusot in his hatred. He was trouble enough without that.
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Old February 18 2013, 03:43 PM   #4
Dal Rassak
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

He seemed pretty sober in that scene. During the occupation arc he just liked his tipple after duty hours. It was only after Federation forces took the station back and he got stuck with Weyoun, realizing more and more how powerless he really was, that he started knocking the stuff back by the bucketful and getting drunk on duty.
Not only wasn't he drunk during their confrontation, but they were squaring off challenging each other, so he was expecting her to attack him. So it's not like he was unprepared in any way.
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Old February 18 2013, 11:11 PM   #5
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

We don't really know that Damar hasd much of a combat background. For all we know, he had the Cardassian equivalent of desk duty for most of his career. No real need, in that case, for him to be a badass.
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Old February 18 2013, 11:38 PM   #6
Loskene
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
And talking of coming to blows, the one scene in the occupation arc where they do had me screaming at the television. Much as I love Kira but she shouldn't have been able to beat him in a straight fight. I mean, I'm sure she can take care of herself in a scrap, don't get me wrong - but still she's a rather slightly built female, he's a solid-looking male.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8eMvA-7Iho

Notice how they are not getting knocked unconscious with every love tap. This is the most unrealistic fight in Star Trek. In realistic Star Trek fights if you get punched in the face you are knocked out for 15 minutes and wake up with no brain damage.

Teh, barely any jump kicks and only one opponent, it should be 3-4 vs 1. Fake!
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Old February 19 2013, 12:07 AM   #7
Hartzilla2007
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
We don't really know that Damar hasd much of a combat background. For all we know, he had the Cardassian equivalent of desk duty for most of his career. No real need, in that case, for him to be a badass.
Plus didn't his first appearance have him as Dukat's XO on a freighter, doesn't exactly call for combat experience now does it.
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Old February 19 2013, 01:02 AM   #8
JirinPanthosa
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

It made sense to me that Damar could work with Kira at the end.

At that point, he was a strictly utilitarian mindset, and so was Kira. Kira needed Damar to rally Cardassia against the Dominion. Damar needed Kira to teach him now to fight a superior force. As much as each hated working with the other, they were both rational enough to know they had to do so.
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Old February 19 2013, 03:18 AM   #9
Bisz
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

I had no problem with him being able to work with her, either from the stand point if it being realistic or from the standpoint that it was good storytelling.

As to Kira beating up Damar and other males... its what the story called for but I agree they could have done better there.
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Old February 19 2013, 05:01 AM   #10
JirinPanthosa
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

I agree Kira shouldn't have been able to beat up large military trained males.

But, I can also see how that was the only way to justify Kira surviving combat situations where a ton of redshirts get killed. In Way of the Warrior they used the 'It's okay, I'm only wounded!' workaround, but if they went to that too often it would have become real blatant real fast.
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Old February 19 2013, 05:19 AM   #11
Dale Sams
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

Kira's a badass. And Cardassians look like they can barely move in that armor.
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Old February 19 2013, 05:51 AM   #12
Gul Re'jal
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

That armour should additionally protect them, absorbing most of punches.

But maybe it's something about Bajoran women. Ro also wasn't someone who any man should want to make angry
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Old February 19 2013, 03:52 PM   #13
Dal Rassak
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

I didn't really have a problem about Damar working with Kira per se, I just thought the attitude change was a bit too 180 degrees. You can force yourself to work with someone you hate for a greater good, and it's admirable in the character that he is able to do so. But you don't just stop hating someone from one day to the next.
I thought it would have made him seem even more admirable, apart from being more convincing, if it had been underlined a bit more how hard it was for him to put his misgivings aside(like they did for Kira who had much the same feelings).

As for what duties exactly Damar had performed in his career, we don't know; but given how militaristic in general the Cardassians are, I'd take any bet their army expects every serving soldier to come up to a certain standard of combat fitness regardless of his functions. This would make tactical sense in any case - you never know how many men you'll lose in any given encounter, anyone who's enlisted might be called on to perform combat duties at some time or another.
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Old February 19 2013, 04:21 PM   #14
Sigokat
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

I think part of the reason I was quickly turned off by Kira's character was because of what you all have said, that her being able to basically kick male's butt no matter what his size and/or military background was just too unrealistic for me. Its okay for her to be a badass but no one is that much of a badass.

And her constant whining about Bajor this and Bajor that and the occupation, at least to me, got real old real quick. But that's just my opinion on the character.

I did like Damar and his arc and I saw why he and Kira needed to work together and put aside their hatred, but with that being said I think it just happened to quickly for my liking. I mean do people real "get over" their differences and hatred for others that quickly? Yeah I know its a tv show and time considerations are always a factor. I'm just glad to see that I'm not the only fan that was somewhat bothered by some of these same things.
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Old February 19 2013, 05:20 PM   #15
Gul Re'jal
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Re: problems with Damar and Kira

Sigokat wrote: View Post
And her constant whining about Bajor this and Bajor that and the occupation, at least to me, got real old real quick. But that's just my opinion on the character.
The occupation left a huge scar on many Bajorans' souls and Kira was probably one of them. Believe me, people can "whine" about such things all their lives. My grandfather did. So I never had a problem with her thoughts constantly returning to the only thing she knew - the occupation. She was boring during it, she grew up during it - it formed a lot of her personality.
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