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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 17 2013, 03:13 PM   #1
JirinPanthosa
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How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

It strikes me as a little odd that there wasn't more fallout after Bashir was allowed to stay in Starfleet.

There's lots of genetically engineered children out there who have been blacklisted their entire life just for who they are, being punished for their parents' crimes. Then Bashir is allowed to stay in Starfleet, their reaction must have been "Hey...WAIT a minute. Why does HE get around the rules when my life is shit?"

Also, what is stopping these genetically engineered kids from just leaving Earth, and working for the Ferengi or Romulans, or even forming a colony of their own just like the Khan situation they created the law to prevent? Are these genetically engineered kids, in addition to not being allowed to have a life, not allowed to leave Earth?

The genetically engineered blacklist always struck me as the least 'Starfleet' thing Starfleet does in any series. It creates a second class of citizen, and one that just happens to be most capable of causing trouble out of anyone. So it's not consistent with anything else established in Starfleet, and when you think about it, it shouldn't even be effective.
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Old February 17 2013, 04:54 PM   #2
Pavonis
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Re: How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

Why do you think there are "lots" of genetically-engineered "kids" out there? There's no evidence of them.

All we know is that genetic engineering is allowed for treating serious medical conditions, and presumably not for things like intelligence or strength enhancement.
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Old February 17 2013, 05:07 PM   #3
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The genetically engineered blacklist always struck me as the least 'Starfleet' thing Starfleet does in any series. It creates a second class of citizen
The JAG Admiral was right: they can't afford to risk creating another Khan. So that, IMHO, makes the Federation's prohibition justified.

Bashir would appear to be a special case. He, and the Federation itself, is just lucky he didn't turn out like Khan.
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Old February 17 2013, 05:10 PM   #4
heavy lids
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Re: How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Why do you think there are "lots" of genetically-engineered "kids" out there? There's no evidence of them.
I can't recall the episode title, but there is an episode in season two of TNG when the Enterprise answers a distress call from a station that was doing experiments on children to improve immune systems. I think that qualifies as genetic engineering.
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Old February 17 2013, 05:13 PM   #5
Jono
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Re: How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

The ones who have had illegal genetic enhancements would probably do what the Bashirs did and keep it a secret and try to live out their lives as best they can. We only know that Starfleet actively bans them, but the general stigma that seems to still hang around would keep most from wanting their secret to be known if they work or live with humans. They really shouldn't have to face this. For the few that are like Bashir should be able to pursue any career path they wish and to be treated with the same dignity as everyone else. This is meant to be our "enlightened" future after all.

The problem is that Bashir seems to be a rare case. DS9 gave the impression that the available methods and technology were more likely to create someone from the Jack Pack rather than a Bashir (I can't remember, but weren't the Jack Pack the least severe cases as well?). So I can understand why they would want to ban Humans getting unnecessary genetic enhancements if the chances are high that it is going to mess up the individual receiving the treatment rather than help them

As for working with the Ferengi or Romulans, they would have a worse time. Those outside the Federation don't seem too fond of ordinary humans, I'm sure they would like super-humans even less.

Last edited by Jono; February 17 2013 at 05:46 PM.
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Old February 17 2013, 05:30 PM   #6
Pavonis
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Re: How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

heavy lids wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
Why do you think there are "lots" of genetically-engineered "kids" out there? There's no evidence of them.
I can't recall the episode title, but there is an episode in season two of TNG when the Enterprise answers a distress call from a station that was doing experiments on children to improve immune systems. I think that qualifies as genetic engineering.
Oh, those kids. They seemed to be wards of the state, as they were human subjects of a government-sponsored genetic engineering experimentation program. You'll recall that they possessed immune systems so powerful that they would attack other people - which nearly caused Pulaski's death.

I doubt those children were allowed to leave the Darwin Research station where they were created. So they were effectively institutionalized, like the Jack Pack, but for different reasons.
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Old February 17 2013, 10:41 PM   #7
Timo
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Re: How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

They weren't supposed to be isolated, though - that was just the unfortunate outcome when the experiment failed.

The difference would seem to be that this was legal genetic enhancing, and potential Khans could have been spotted early on. The likes of Julian Bashir are cases of illegal genetic enhancing, which by definition cannot be controlled and potential Khans weeded out.

Why the government would refuse to do controlled therapy on the Julian Bashirs of the world when it conducts research on the subject anyway, we aren't told. But the point could well be that Bashir never really needed any treatment and could have lived a happy life just as is. The type of therapy his parents wanted had a high potential for new Khans and little merit otherwise, and the folks at Darwin were in fact searching for better therapies with more controlled and more beneficial results.

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Old February 17 2013, 10:45 PM   #8
JirinPanthosa
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Re: How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

Jono wrote: View Post
The ones who have had illegal genetic enhancements would probably do what the Bashirs did and keep it a secret and try to live out their lives as best they can. We only know that Starfleet actively bans them, but the general stigma that seems to still hang around would keep most from wanting their secret to be known if they work or live with humans. They really shouldn't have to face this. For the few that are like Bashir should be able to pursue any career path they wish and to be treated with the same dignity as everyone else. This is meant to be our "enlightened" future after all.

The problem is that Bashir seems to be a rare case. DS9 gave the impression that the available methods and technology were more likely to create someone from the Jack Pack rather than a Bashir (I can't remember, but weren't the Jack Pack the least severe cases as well?). So I can understand why they would want to ban Humans getting unnecessary genetic enhancements if the chances are high that it is going to mess up the individual receiving the treatment rather than help them

As for working with the Ferengi or Romulans, they would have a worse time. Those outside the Federation don't seem too fond of ordinary humans, I'm sure they would like super-humans even less.
No, but Ferengi are awfully fond of latinum, and having a genetically engineered mind on their side would be very profitable. And the Romulans or most of the enemies of the Federation, you think they wouldn't take any advantage they can get and pay out handsomely for their services?

It's true we haven't seen any count of how many genetically engineered humans there really are out there. But there's also no reason to think that the five we see in DS9 are the only genetically engineered children out there. It's reasonable to think that there are some genetic kids on Earth, who are not mentally unstable, and are legally prevented from getting a job.
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Old February 18 2013, 06:00 AM   #9
Jono
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Re: How do other non-insane genetically engineered children live?

^ If they see the value in one I'm sure they would take advantage, but whether they would treat a super-human better than how they are treated in the Federation is questionable. They might get a decent life (if profit and possessions is important to the individual) if they work for the Ferengi, but the Federation enemies are generally not nice guys. A nice paid consulting job can easily turn into getting tortured in a dark cell very easily.

As for back on Earth, we don't know they are legally prevented from getting a job, just that Starfleet won't accept them.
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