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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old February 17 2013, 04:30 PM   #16
stj
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Re: Early on, could Seska have flipped Neelix?

Suspiria had lots of super-powered Ocampa for friends, who would have objections to Seska killing Suspiria and having her way. So, no.

The Ferengi had money, a ship, possible exchange value as prisoners, and, at the very least, offered a distraction, all of which would have been attractive to Seska in plotting her getaway on return to Federation space. So, no, Seska would also have engaged with the Ferengi, albeit for different purposes. But I suppose you could rebut that Seska was a better villain than the Ferengi, and would have won instead. So, maybe.

I guess that's why people curse Voyager's wasted potential, it could have been just three seasons instead of seven.
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Old February 17 2013, 10:32 PM   #17
Guy Gardener
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Re: Early on, could Seska have flipped Neelix?

Susperia with a gun to her head and those Ocampa will be the most obedient bitches ever.

You recall that the Federation does not use or understand money? Janeways problem was that the ferengi were enslaving a village. Seriously A VILLAGE... Not a world, but a village, and their ship was a shuttle pod that hadn't been serviced in 7 years which may not even be capable of warp speed.
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Old February 17 2013, 10:53 PM   #18
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Early on, could Seska have flipped Neelix?

Wait, wait...

You're saying that if a person frees a slave from somebody, it's that person who is guilty of theft?

The south shall rise again I guess?
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Old February 17 2013, 11:28 PM   #19
Guy Gardener
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Re: Early on, could Seska have flipped Neelix?

Where slavery is legal, that's completely true.

Prostitution is legal in my country.

If I go to America and feel like whoring it up anywhere except Nevada, I don't anticipate that the policemen and policewomen kicking my door down will care that my country is more civilized than their country and that my superior civility should make me immune from the laws they are are upholding with a billy club to my face.

It's called cultural relativity.
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Old February 17 2013, 11:56 PM   #20
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Early on, could Seska have flipped Neelix?

Are you making a technical argument that strictly interpreted it is stealing, or are you morally defending slavery on the grounds that in some cultures it is legal and in some cultures it is not? If it's the former, yes, that is technically correct, stealing Kes makes Neelix a thief. If it's the latter, that is absurd.

Law is created by whoever has military and political control over an area at the moment. Strictly the act of creating that law does not make it a legitimate law if that power was taken by force instead of given by consent. And no law is legitimate if it violates people's natural right to life, liberty and property. Where slavery is legal, it is not a legitimate law. And while yes you will be punished for disobeying it, the legal definition of a thief is not the same as the moral definition of one.

As for comparison to 'moral watchdog' laws such as the law against prostitution or other mutual contracts, while I may oppose them, putting it on the same level as slavery is absurd.
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Old February 18 2013, 01:44 AM   #21
Guy Gardener
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Re: Early on, could Seska have flipped Neelix?

I'm very good at being absurd.

The US military should assault Holland with the full force of it powers to arrest and incarcerate the totality of the pot users and distributers to uphold the superior ethics of America beyond it's borders.

Meanwhile what about prohibition during the 1930s? Was Al Capone a decent sort of guy and Elliott Ness a ridiculous idiot just farting about with law no civilized person should have to enforce?

Immoral laws from an unjust government?

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-...ct-of-1850.htm

You can't pick and chose how moral a country is and if you chose to break laws made by that country which you find unconscionable, there will be legal consequences... Unless you're planning a popular uprising which has it's own can of worms.

Later in Counterpoint... Do you think that Janeway was a criminal or a hero for smuggling telepaths through Devore territory when they are expected to be detained, sterilized and worked to death in concentatiion camps? Sure you can say that she's a hero who did the right thing, but there was a 90 percent chance (higher?) of Voyager being impounded and her crew being sent to one of those concentration camps for flouting Devore law.

If things had gone a little differently, after 20 years of digging holes and then filling them up again in the back yard of a Devore Labour Camp, there's a distinct possibility that even Harry Kim is going to spit on Kathryn Janeways grave for being a pretentious and arrogant SOB.

Then there's Swarm! "please don't tresspass or we will kill you." What happened there? Janeway tresspassed anyway and then was forced to defend her self murdering thousands of swarmies becuase they didn't want to change their mind and accept Janeways enlightened definition of reason. Seriously, someone breaks into your house and shoots you becuase you're tying to defend your home from them, and they're on the side of angels?

All Voyager does is pass through weird empires with strange laws that are probably going to bite them in the ass even if they're bloody well behaved, and sometimes they are the opposite of very well behaved and really deserve a fancy trial and a public execution like when Tom blew up that power station in 30 days, or Tuvok stole proprietry technology from the Sikarians in Prime Factors.

In Rome, do as the Romans do.

They're a dirty crew and Captain Ransom should have thrown the book at them and put them all in chains... If that is, he wasn't then currently in the midst of a mass murder spree, that it would have been a touch cheeky to call them on their shit when he was past his neck in his own.
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