RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,678
Posts: 5,430,246
Members: 24,827
Currently online: 491
Newest member: Sb118_James


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 19 2013, 06:23 PM   #106
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

trevanian wrote: View Post

The "it's not gone" argument ignores the core of all this -- the issue of tampering.
I'm sorry, but I don't see Star Trek as some type of sacred religious relic.

Trying to improve on things we've done before is kinda at the core of being human. It is debatable whether the work CBS Digital did on the series was an improvement (I happen to think much of the ship shots were pretty poor), but I refuse to damn them for tinkering with it.

As far as Trek as we know it disappearing, J.J. Abrams did try to break into my house and steal all my Trek related discs but luckily LeVar Burton was there to stop him...

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
The Aurora class cruiser from 'The Way to Eden" is GONE...

Fell out of my chair when I saw it!
Really? Of all the things to criticize? I was actually thankful they ditched the Tholian Webspinner with nacelles glued onto it.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 06:24 PM   #107
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Yeah the idea that you have to update a look to keep a later audience seems seriously wrong.

Do you go back and replace all those reel-to-reel 'computers' in THE PRISONER with things that look like CRAYs from the 80s? Or a row of guys with laptops, or folks doing the MINORITY REPORT air guitar keystroking?

Might as well replace all exteriors of The Village with EPCOT center, to make it seem more cosmopolitan.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 06:33 PM   #108
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: New Jersey, with the Jersey Devil...
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Eventually there would have become a point where if they had not remastered TOS into HD, TV stations would have stopped buying them. Maybe not today, maybe not in 5 or 10 years but at one point in the future. So some fans of it today might not like it, but is it not better to preserve it so that future generations can enjoy it.
Hang on a second there, on that thought...
First off, I've nothing against remastering TOS... You know, as in Preserving the Original episodes in an Unaltered form...

What we actually have here is ripped out filmed model footage and substituted CGI cartoons for space vessels, changing visual FX shots, doing Gene-knows-what to matte paintings...
It's Evil! I can feel it in my bones...

But to say that people won't watch something because it's not HD pretty much nails it for me about today's generation... You know, I came across some kids who refused to watch anything in B&W... It makes me wonder if the next generation will demand everything to be in 3-D to be watched and to be enjoyed...

I know the arguments: It's necessary to keep up with the changing times and all that... ("This isn't your father's Star Trek" "Star Trek NEEDED to be rebooted").
These guys called Fans kept TOS (and yeah, let's focus strictly on TOS, no need to add-in any spinoffs!) Alive for Decades without any Need to Remake it in any way, shape, or form... Because Trek was first and foremost about Ideas, with FX just being an added swirl of icing on the cake... That's pretty much the inverse of Star Wars and all that it spawned... Again, it all comes down to money and milking the fans... There's obviously no lows low enough for TPTB to descend to, so 3-D-ing TOS will be my next prediction... If not a 2.0 TOS-R with "forehead" Klingons and Romulans, streaking warp star FX, the Gorn transformed into Godzilla, Jr., CGI-hyperactive viewscreens and clipboards everywhere, and Uhura hauling around a CGI pet tribble on her shoulder (if they can come to some financial arrangement with David Gerrold)... In fact, why not CGI-enhance Uhura's breasts too, while they're at it! Or if they can Canonize TAS, replace Uhura entirely with a CGI M'Ress! Meow! Or tie ST V's kitten into That and give her an Extra one!
And let's dump-in Scotty's token alien midget pal from Abramstrek for continuity with That film, to liven-up the Engineering deck!

OK, I'm calming down now...
Lenny Nurdbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 06:36 PM   #109
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
1001001 wrote: View Post



As for this...

And if a writer (say of a particular Star Trek novel) IS online here, Any and Every piece of negative criticism is unwarranted, unjustified, and worthy of a permanent ban... After all, it's easier to Delete one mere know-nothing fan as opposed to someone Blessed by the near-PTB who at least carry some visionary weight with Pocket Books...

[This is why I'm keeping my mouth clamped shut like an Aldebaran shellmouth over "The R**gs of ****" which has got to be The Worst TOS Novel this fan has read in years, and believe me I've read just about all of 'em...]
That is hardly keeping your mouth "clamped shut". You are entitled to your opinion of course, but this isn't even relevant to the thread.

It wouldn't hurt to bring it down a notch or two.
I'm curious what poor Greg Cox did in The Rings of Time? He seems like a pretty hardcore Trekkie and I thought the books was quite good.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 06:40 PM   #110
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post

The "it's not gone" argument ignores the core of all this -- the issue of tampering.
I'm sorry, but I don't see Star Trek as some type of sacred religious relic.
I think you completely missed my point, which ain't about TREK at all; it is about ANY creative piece of work. You can put it out there to acclaim or disdain or whatever response it happens to engender, but that is the work, like it or not. This 'hey let's give this thing these other guys did another bash' notion invalidates and diminishes.

Maybe you do have one point with your comment, about the use of 'sacred.' Creativity SHOULD be considered sacred.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 06:45 PM   #111
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

trevanian wrote: View Post
I think you completely missed my point, which ain't about TREK at all; it is about ANY creative piece of work. You can put it out there to acclaim or disdain or whatever response it happens to engender, but that is the work, like it or not. This 'hey let's give this thing these other guys did another bash' notion invalidates and diminishes.
No it's not. How many changes does any given piece of art (especially something collaborative like TV) go through before we actually see it?

By your standard, we should've gotten Captain Winter with his red-skinned Martian First Officer and Luke Starkiller.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 06:50 PM   #112
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: New Jersey, with the Jersey Devil...
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post

The "it's not gone" argument ignores the core of all this -- the issue of tampering.
I'm sorry, but I don't see Star Trek as some type of sacred religious relic.

Trying to improve on things we've done before is kinda at the core of being human. It is debatable whether the work CBS Digital did on the series was an improvement (I happen to think much of the ship shots were pretty poor), but I refuse to damn them for tinkering with it.

As far as Trek as we know it disappearing, J.J. Abrams did try to break into my house and steal all my Trek related discs but luckily LeVar Burton was there to stop him...

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
The Aurora class cruiser from 'The Way to Eden" is GONE...

Fell out of my chair when I saw it!
Really? Of all the things to criticize? I was actually thankful they ditched the Tholian Webspinner with nacelles glued onto it.
The Aurora Class (NCC-C1200) space cruiser is an integral component of Treknical history... She's been thoroughly blueprinted and, in fact, is probably one of the most detailed and researched 2-sheeter ever... You could say the forerunner of other Vulcan-designed small craft including the Tai Tandem "warpsled" of ST-TMP... Kind of part of the lineage which went into the design of the Vulcan ships in TNG's "Unification" 2-parter...
An Aurora even appears in the hangar cutaway of the Durance class cargo/tug booklet of general plans...

Some of us fans take these little "throwaway scraps" far more seriously than other more "casual" fans...
To some of us, Star Trek IS a sacred, religious relic...

Just remember how much that phaser rifle sold for at an auction recently! Now imagine if it was CGI replaced with something entirely different, a rifle with all manner of Transformers-like BS fluidity... Maybe you'd like to see something like that Replaced and banished to some trash can on the edge of forever...

And give Mr. Atoz a Really Cool futuristic weapon in "All Our Yesterdays" instead of a metal cylinder!

There's just no respect for the past anymore... No respect for the dead...
Lenny Nurdbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 07:04 PM   #113
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
The Aurora Class (NCC-C1200) space cruiser is an integral component of Treknical history... She's been thoroughly blueprinted and, in fact, is probably one of the most detailed and researched 2-sheeter ever...
An Aurora even appears in the hangar cutaway of the Durance class cargo/tug booklet of general plans...

Some of us fans take these little "throwaway scraps" far more seriously than other more "casual" fans...
To some of us, Star Trek IS a sacred, religious relic...
But those are fanzines! Made by fans who never had any connection to Star Trek beyond watching and enjoying it. It's like complaining that Kraith or other famous fanzine stories were ignored and contradicted. Please explain to me why sheets of fan-made diagrams be considered sacred when fan-written stories aren't?
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 07:07 PM   #114
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Eventually there would have become a point where if they had not remastered TOS into HD, TV stations would have stopped buying them. Maybe not today, maybe not in 5 or 10 years but at one point in the future. So some fans of it today might not like it, but is it not better to preserve it so that future generations can enjoy it.
Hang on a second there, on that thought...
First off, I've nothing against remastering TOS... You know, as in Preserving the Original episodes in an Unaltered form...

What we actually have here is ripped out filmed model footage and substituted CGI cartoons for space vessels, changing visual FX shots, doing Gene-knows-what to matte paintings...
It's Evil! I can feel it in my bones...

But to say that people won't watch something because it's not HD pretty much nails it for me about today's generation... You know, I came across some kids who refused to watch anything in B&W... It makes me wonder if the next generation will demand everything to be in 3-D to be watched and to be enjoyed...

I know the arguments: It's necessary to keep up with the changing times and all that... ("This isn't your father's Star Trek" "Star Trek NEEDED to be rebooted").
These guys called Fans kept TOS (and yeah, let's focus strictly on TOS, no need to add-in any spinoffs!) Alive for Decades without any Need to Remake it in any way, shape, or form... Because Trek was first and foremost about Ideas, with FX just being an added swirl of icing on the cake... That's pretty much the inverse of Star Wars and all that it spawned... Again, it all comes down to money and milking the fans... There's obviously no lows low enough for TPTB to descend to, so 3-D-ing TOS will be my next prediction... If not a 2.0 TOS-R with "forehead" Klingons and Romulans, streaking warp star FX, the Gorn transformed into Godzilla, Jr., CGI-hyperactive viewscreens and clipboards everywhere, and Uhura hauling around a CGI pet tribble on her shoulder (if they can come to some financial arrangement with David Gerrold)... In fact, why not CGI-enhance Uhura's breasts too, while they're at it! Or if they can Canonize TAS, replace Uhura entirely with a CGI M'Ress! Meow! Or tie ST V's kitten into That and give her an Extra one!
And let's dump-in Scotty's token alien midget pal from Abramstrek for continuity with That film, to liven-up the Engineering deck!

OK, I'm calming down now...
Well it is true that some of the new CGI effects could have been better. And you CAN have the original unaltered episodes on the blu-ray box set. So what's the problem if you want the original you can have it, if you want the updated version you can have that as well.

If a film/TV show interests me I'll watch it in B&W, colour or 3D. As for generational issues, you'll never get away from that. Music was better when I was a kid etc... Do I like all of today's music, no do I like all of the music when I was younger, no.

Yes I grew up on re-runs of TOS, and I'll happily watch either the original or re-mastered version. Makes no difference to me, I think some of the effects added to the original SW trilogy improved it. i.e the vistas of cloud city you could see from the corridoors.

Paramount/CBS etc.. are in the buinsess of making money, and ST is a valuable property to them. If remastering them means the difference between continuing to sell the show to air around the world or not selling them. I know which I would do as a manager, spend the money remastering to ensure it continues to generate a revenue stream for decades to come, long after the people who don't like it have died.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 07:25 PM   #115
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
I think you completely missed my point, which ain't about TREK at all; it is about ANY creative piece of work. You can put it out there to acclaim or disdain or whatever response it happens to engender, but that is the work, like it or not. This 'hey let's give this thing these other guys did another bash' notion invalidates and diminishes.
No it's not. How many changes does any given piece of art (especially something collaborative like TV) go through before we actually see it?

By your standard, we should've gotten Captain Winter with his red-skinned Martian First Officer and Luke Starkiller.
Is anybody actually READING what is written here?

A completed piece of work is a thing apart from a premise or outline for a piece of work, just like a Syd Mead sketch is far different (and not really even a thing unto itself, except as a building block toward a greater end) than when he is done with the finished piece of art using gouache or watercolor or whatever.

You're talking about a point in a process, instead of the endpoint. You can cut somebody off a screenplay and bring somebody else in to rewrite, and that is still part of the PROCESS. When it's done and presented, THAT is when you stop messing with it. Why? BECAUSE it is done.

I think maybe you're confusing the notion of art & creativity in the real universe with some quantum reality all-possibilities-exist thing. Can't see what other ground you'd have to crawl along to support that view. Well, then again, I do grant you have Ellison's version of CITY as its own thing apart from the ep. But that's because he made that available as a complete thing unto itself, APART from the original, and at the same time, and it was in the public eye. He didn't wait 20 years to rewrite what he'd done and then put it out there for comparison.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 07:25 PM   #116
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

There's just no respect for the past anymore... No respect for the dead...
Please... I have this on my bedside table:



But I don't mind someone tinkering, I don't mind someone trying to improve it. Doesn't mean it will always be successful.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 09:39 PM   #117
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

trevanian wrote:
The "it's not gone" argument ignores the core of all this -- the issue of tampering. Except for kids' books, the whole interactive choose your own ending of storytelling has largely flopped (and it is a good thing, because who wants a MOBY DICK where Ahab gets a bionic leg and then stuff his old peg down the whale's blowhole?)

Unless your alteration is a legit parody, you are diminishing the original by subjecting it to change that was not intended by the makers.
Say for argument's sake somebody decides Spock shouldn't die at the end of TWOK. Well, you could run the shot of him going through the revolving door in reverse to show him exiting successfully after mixing all the crap, then dub over McCoy saying "it's that green blood of his" from OBSESSION and voila, different movie. You go to Kirk & his kid in his quarters after showing the burial ceremony (a voiceover indicating it is for Peter Preston) and you're done. You've destroyed and distorted all the resonances and what made it work in the first place, and so even if you say the original is still there, you have diminished it.
But none of the changes made in TOS-R go beyond the cosmetic, so it's an unfair comparison.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 10:20 PM   #118
Metryq
Captain
 
Metryq's Avatar
 
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
As for generational issues, you'll never get away from that. Music was better when I was a kid etc...
I think we should ask Mr. Flint how he deals with it. "Then they colorized the ILIAD and the ODYSSEY, extruded it into 3D and 'rebooted' it into an alternate timeline after giving Helen a skin-tight catsuit and CGI breasts bigger than her head..."

...because that's "what audiences want."
__________________
"No, I better not look. I just might be in there."
—Foghorn Leghorn, Little Boy Boo
Metryq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 10:35 PM   #119
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote:
The "it's not gone" argument ignores the core of all this -- the issue of tampering. Except for kids' books, the whole interactive choose your own ending of storytelling has largely flopped (and it is a good thing, because who wants a MOBY DICK where Ahab gets a bionic leg and then stuff his old peg down the whale's blowhole?)

Unless your alteration is a legit parody, you are diminishing the original by subjecting it to change that was not intended by the makers.
Say for argument's sake somebody decides Spock shouldn't die at the end of TWOK. Well, you could run the shot of him going through the revolving door in reverse to show him exiting successfully after mixing all the crap, then dub over McCoy saying "it's that green blood of his" from OBSESSION and voila, different movie. You go to Kirk & his kid in his quarters after showing the burial ceremony (a voiceover indicating it is for Peter Preston) and you're done. You've destroyed and distorted all the resonances and what made it work in the first place, and so even if you say the original is still there, you have diminished it.
But none of the changes made in TOS-R go beyond the cosmetic, so it's an unfair comparison.
CHANGING THE LOOK OF THE UNIVERSE IS COSMETIC?

For Q maybe.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 11:15 PM   #120
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

trevanian wrote: View Post


Unless your alteration is a legit parody, you are diminishing the original by subjecting it to change that was not intended by the makers.
Say for argument's sake somebody decides Spock shouldn't die at the end of TWOK. Well, you could run the shot of him going through the revolving door in reverse to show him exiting successfully after mixing all the crap, then dub over McCoy saying "it's that green blood of his" from OBSESSION and voila, different movie. You go to Kirk & his kid in his quarters after showing the burial ceremony (a voiceover indicating it is for Peter Preston) and you're done. You've destroyed and distorted all the resonances and what made it work in the first place, and so even if you say the original is still there, you have diminished it.
So when Lucas decided to re-do some the effects for the original SW trilogy, thats ok? (Note: I have no issue with the changes)

FX is a balancing act between what you want and what you can afford. So perhaps for some of TOS-R we got the FX they wanted had they the time & money to do.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.