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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 17 2013, 08:35 PM   #61
Mr. Adventure
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I'll be very shocked if they spend more money on remastering/remixing just for another Blu-ray release. Sure, they could slap together or blow the dust off a special feature or two for a new set, but the TOS-R we got with its second-string CGI was the very model of cheapness to begin with. Why spend a lot more money, for just as much return?
It'd be interesting to see what a TOS remastering Kickstarter could bring in.
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Old March 17 2013, 08:48 PM   #62
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

feek61 wrote: View Post
I personally think TOS-R "The Doomsday Machine" is one of the worst of the TOS-R episodes. In my opinion at least the original effects looked better than the cartoons that replaced them. The texture on the doomsday machine itself was just pathetic. Don't even get me started on the interior of the machine or the super cartoon looking force beam that it emitted. It really renders one of my favorite TOS episodes unwatchable for me. To me the remastered effects were nothing more than a gimmick but I'm glad to hear that some like them.
That episode is a great example of what I said some posts back re CGI effects made by people who don't understand how light works on film. The Planet Killer's original beam flashes through a whole series of colors which gives it this hot, energetic pulse which is completely absent in the remastered version effects. Don't even get me started on the pathetic barfing up blueberry juice explosion at the end.

Also, the animators add pointless excess motion which negatively impacts the drama of certain scenes. The animation of the Constellation heading into the Planet Killer's maw is needlessly hyperactive. The ship slaloming around undermines the ticking clock. It's a death march, not a luge ride.
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Old March 17 2013, 09:06 PM   #63
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

feek61 wrote: View Post
I personally think TOS-R "The Doomsday Machine" is one of the worst of the TOS-R episodes. In my opinion at least the original effects looked better than the cartoons that replaced them. The texture on the doomsday machine itself was just pathetic. Don't even get me started on the interior of the machine or the super cartoon looking force beam that it emitted. It really renders one of my favorite TOS episodes unwatchable for me. To me the remastered effects were nothing more than a gimmick but I'm glad to hear that some like them.
Nah, the repetitive stock footage, very poor matting, loss of quality from analog triple head printing, bad lighting, terrible Machine model, improper scale and composition is actually a demo reel in one place for the poor FX of TOS. Even the worst TOS-R CGI would be superior in every way. They also took great care to map out the battle and choose the proper angles and relative positions of the ships in the remastered version. All come together to produce a stellar reworking in the form of a TOS era episode.

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Old March 17 2013, 10:30 PM   #64
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

To each his own but I do agree with Maurice. I was watching TOS-R "Where No Man Has Gone Before" yesterday and the stupid motions the ships makes going into the barrier just makes no sense at all. Would they not be on a straight course right into the thing? It is as if they tried to make the new effects "more exciting" by adding useless motions to the ships. The shuttlecraft leaving the hangar bay is another perfect example. In the original you have a conveyor that ferries the shuttlecraft to the end of the fantail and then she lifts off. In the TOS-R version the shuttlecraft jumps up from it's sitting location; totally unrealistic looking and for practical reasons ridiculous. Anyway, I always prefer the look of a model because it has dimension that in most cases (and in particular TOS-R) cannot replicate well enough to be convincing.

I wish they would have spent the remaster effects money on just cleaning-up the existing effects shots.
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Old March 17 2013, 10:40 PM   #65
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

feek61 wrote: View Post
To each his own but I do agree with Maurice. I was watching TOS-R "Where No Man Has Gone Before" yesterday and the stupid motions the ships makes going into the barrier just makes no sense at all. Would they not be on a straight course right into the thing? It is as if they tried to make the new effects "more exciting" by adding useless motions to the ships. The shuttlecraft leaving the hangar bay is another perfect example. In the original you have a conveyor that ferries the shuttlecraft to the end of the fantail and then she lifts off. In the TOS-R version the shuttlecraft jumps up from it's sitting location; totally unrealistic looking and for practical reasons ridiculous. Anyway, I always prefer the look of a model because it has dimension that in most cases (and in particular TOS-R) cannot replicate well enough to be convincing.

I wish they would have spent the remaster effects money on just cleaning-up the existing effects shots.
This. And this. And this.
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Old March 18 2013, 02:36 PM   #66
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

feek61 wrote: View Post
I was watching TOS-R "Where No Man Has Gone Before" yesterday and the stupid motions the ships makes going into the barrier just makes no sense at all. Would they not be on a straight course right into the thing? It is as if they tried to make the new effects "more exciting" by adding useless motions to the ships.
A real spacecraft couldn't do these extra motions and a straight course is still the "real thing". Of course the VFX of TOS were limited to straight courses but coincidentally that was the real thing before "Star Wars" came along (and even its big ships didn't zigzag around like airplanes).

Paul Verhoeven understood this as director for "Starship Troopers". He insisted the Rodger Young to be sluggish in helm response because he felt you could only convey a sense of size if a ship reacted in a way we would expect a "big" ship to.

Bob
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Old March 18 2013, 05:09 PM   #67
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

feek61 wrote: View Post
It is as if they tried to make the new effects "more exciting" by adding useless motions to the ships..
Blame it on people brainwashed by ILM/Star Wars, instead of taking influence from the actual TOS FX/ship movements. The most logical way of "upgading" TOS FX would have been to think like FX artists of ther period if they had the larger budget--which would have been the ship work (lighting, detail, movement) seen in 2001, not the Lucas-ized, video-game crap of TOS-R.
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Old March 18 2013, 08:55 PM   #68
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Funny, I can imagine a kind of "Ship of Theseus" scenario happening, at least in an absurdist reality. Each decade or so, the owners of Trek (whether it be Paramount, CBs, Toho, whomever) decides to "spruce up" the material, trying to keep it a commercially viable property. This time around, it was cleaned up live action footage and digital space shots that would look good in HDTV. Ten or twenty years from now, when (or if) some definitive form of domestic 3D has become the standard and norm, the episodes are tweaked again, this time to give "depth" to the shots. There will be those fans who feel TOS should remain a 2D medium. And for those who are a bit more accepting of the update in general, will probably find fault with the "depth of field" selected by the enhnacement team.

But where does one go from there? Smell-O-Vision? "I don't like the choice of cologne the fragrance staff gave Kirk! The Salt Vampire should smell like a dry sea bed, not the dry lake beds of the SouthWest!" Maybe Feel-O-Vision (aka "Grope-O-Rama")? "Oh, come on! Uhura feels like she's got 'implants'! Being a self confident woman of the 23rd century, hers should be 'natural'!" Of course, you'd have those fans debating whether Spock's ear tips should feel like tissue or like the foam latex appliances they really were.

Yes, I am being a bit silly.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old March 18 2013, 11:16 PM   #69
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

I can't wait for Feel-o-vision!
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Old March 18 2013, 11:22 PM   #70
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

I can't wait to watch a holodeck episode.... on the holodeck.

(not TOS, but still.)
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Old March 18 2013, 11:58 PM   #71
Robert Comsol
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Redfern wrote: View Post
And for those who are a bit more accepting of the update in general, will probably find fault with the "depth of field" selected by the enhnacement team.
Actually, this is happening already. Unfortunately there are too many people (with the exception of Jim Cameron) that do not understand that the pair of human eyes can not see things in 3D beyond 200 yards.

So all these lenticular astronomic posters or postcards where you see Saturn and the like in 3D are crap.

Should they do this to Star Trek I'm most definitely among the first to complain.

Bob
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Old March 19 2013, 12:02 AM   #72
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

I think Ridley Scott did an excellent job on the 3-D in "Prometheus." It was not a distraction but enhanced the movie without interfering with it. I thought it was some of the best 3-D that I have seen. Hopefully whatever they do with Trek will be along those lines.
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Old March 19 2013, 02:32 PM   #73
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

The Doomsday Machine was a great episode when I first saw it as a tyke. It was an amazing episode when I watched it as a pimply teen. It was a stupendous episode when I watched it as a young adult. And it remains my all time favorite episode as I watch it now at 45 years old. The original effects take nothing away from the show, they never did. Bad or old effects don't impact negatively on my viewing experience because a) they do the job and b) I watch every TV show and movie well aware of the limitations of the time and fully appreciate they did the very best they could with the time and money they had. I never needed new effects in Star Trek. Ever. It's great as is. I'm also more forgiving of "bad" effect made 50 years ago than I am over bad effects made in 2006. At least 50 years ago they had an excuse.

Hell, I don't even watch the HD prints most of the time. It's lower res laserdisc for me.
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Old March 19 2013, 06:31 PM   #74
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Redfern wrote: View Post
Funny, I can imagine a kind of "Ship of Theseus" scenario happening, at least in an absurdist reality. Each decade or so, the owners of Trek (whether it be Paramount, CBs, Toho, whomever) decides to "spruce up" the material, trying to keep it a commercially viable property. This time around, it was cleaned up live action footage and digital space shots that would look good in HDTV. Ten or twenty years from now, when (or if) some definitive form of domestic 3D has become the standard and norm, the episodes are tweaked again, this time to give "depth" to the shots. There will be those fans who feel TOS should remain a 2D medium. And for those who are a bit more accepting of the update in general, will probably find fault with the "depth of field" selected by the enhnacement team.

But where does one go from there? Smell-O-Vision? "I don't like the choice of cologne the fragrance staff gave Kirk! The Salt Vampire should smell like a dry sea bed, not the dry lake beds of the SouthWest!" Maybe Feel-O-Vision (aka "Grope-O-Rama")? "Oh, come on! Uhura feels like she's got 'implants'! Being a self confident woman of the 23rd century, hers should be 'natural'!" Of course, you'd have those fans debating whether Spock's ear tips should feel like tissue or like the foam latex appliances they really were.

Yes, I am being a bit silly.

Sincerely,

Bill
Great post!

King Daniel wrote: View Post
I can't wait to watch a holodeck episode.... on the holodeck.

(not TOS, but still.)
Right, it's TAS.
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Old March 19 2013, 07:09 PM   #75
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

I think if the remastered effects would have been done better there may not be such an outcry against them. In truth they did some things that I liked. The entrance of the Horta for example was good. Some of the city matte shoots were good. If they would not have tried to reinvent the effects it would have gone a long way with the fans. Stuff like redesigning the Tholian ship (to look like those in "Enterprise" no less) just drives me crazy; why do that? There are countless other examples but regardless; the overall look of the exterior spaceship shots all look like cartoons. In my book if you can't do something right; don't do it!

On a side note I do realize that no matter how great the effects would have looked; I still would have preferred the originals. That doesn't however change the fact that the new effects for the most part look bad.
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