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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 20 2013, 05:03 AM   #136
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
I think you completely missed my point, which ain't about TREK at all; it is about ANY creative piece of work. You can put it out there to acclaim or disdain or whatever response it happens to engender, but that is the work, like it or not. This 'hey let's give this thing these other guys did another bash' notion invalidates and diminishes.
No it's not. How many changes does any given piece of art (especially something collaborative like TV) go through before we actually see it?

By your standard, we should've gotten Captain Winter with his red-skinned Martian First Officer and Luke Starkiller.
One question: Where do you draw the line?

I'll give you my own personal answer: you draw the line once the finished product is released, be it aired or shown in a cinema... After that it Should be left alone... Preserved yes, but not revamped, special editioned, directors cutted, or CGIed... This is pretty much the problem I have with new movies these days... It seems that the one released theatrically just isn't good enough for today's audience and they need to see alternate versions, re-releases, and whatnot... Now I've nothing against seeing some cutting room footage and trims in a special package, but not put back into a movie JUST SO IT CAN BE RE-RELEASED TO MAKE MORE MONEY...
(And yeah, I'm also in the minority again, opposed to the the "Director's Cut" of ST-TMP... I liked both the theatrical version and even the extended network TV version, but the final hyped thing they put out with a new Vulcan, removing the jazzy alert klaxon sound, and even taking out the computer voice--was going too frigging far! If they took out the masculine computer voice--then why didn't they also take it out from the opening scene of ST II? You know "Klingons on attack course and closing... Object is a Third Class Neutronic Fuel Carrier, Crew of 81, 300 passengers...")...
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Old April 20 2013, 05:15 AM   #137
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

There's just no respect for the past anymore... No respect for the dead...
Please... I have this on my bedside table:

But I don't mind someone tinkering, I don't mind someone trying to improve it. Doesn't mean it will always be successful.
If I had one of those on my bedside table, I'd never leave the bed... It'd be better than sex...
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Old April 20 2013, 08:48 AM   #138
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Because these "fanzines" (not really what I'm talking about, but discrete blueprint packs) expanded upon--built upon--the little genre known as Tech Fandom... This is the legacy of Franz Joseph & Friends... Pushing the envelope of analyzing and blueprinting everything that ever was in Star Trek... Taking this universe as though it were plausible and scientifically sound and real... But I of course can't expect the uninitiated to possibly understand...

Don't talk to me about fans who never had any connection... I say this for 2 reasons:

First, anyone serious enough and talented enough in drafting and blueprinting can analyze things and put 2 and 2 together... And draw and make assumptions and Build upon previous works and Extrapolate from previous works... They don't have to be "blessed" by Gene Roddenberry or any other deity connected to the show; they simply have to be able to Do Their Homework Right...
I can also talk about another fan who spent years reading and re-reading hundreds of Trek books and Documenting tiny bits of trivia for inclusion in a massive timeline... He wasn't "blessed" either, just a Fan... But he did his work well...
If these are so well researched, why doesn't the S.S Aurora have the same nacelles it did in the episode? Why doesn't the Independece-class freighter match the S.S Huron from "Pirates of Orion"? I love those old fan-made blueprints too, but they took plenty of liberties with the source material. Not that it's a crime to do so - I just don't think they're as well researched as you believe.

Also, Franz Joseph was not a fan of Star Trek! His daughter Karen was. You *really* should read that link I keep giving you.
http://www.trekplace.com/fj-kdint01.html
She is the reason Tech Fandom exists. He blueprinted the Enterprise for her.
Secondly, and this is really obvious... The blind worship of anyone who takes the center seat...

Let me throw some names around here: J.J. Abrams, Roberto Orci, and Alex Kurtzman... It took the combined intellect of these kids to create something which no man has ever created before, and I think you have a good idea of what I'm talking about... Basically, the least talented persons together in the right place and the right time--and with NO qualifications whatsoever or even a liking of Star Trek (half of them weren't even Born when TOS first aired)...
Star Trek and Into Darkness co-writer Roberto Orci is a die-hard fan. He even has shelves of Trek novels. I know you disagree, but I thought the movie was a loving tribute to Star Trek - there were references to episodes, movies, novels and please tell me you recognized the influence of Roger Sorensen's 1983 Kobayashi Maru blueprints on the movie veraion of the USS Kobayashi Maru? The man himself did and was thrilled. The movie artists were given that blueprint pack and the cover of Julie Ecklar's novel (depicting the Spaceflight Chronology version) to work from. See here for details: http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/3869/
It seems Into Darkness takes some pretty big cues from novels too.
Finally the people in charge are looking beyond "canon" for inspiration. I love it.
I'd sooner see Kraith and other old zine series become elevated to something worthy of being filmed or cataloged long before I give this trio any credit...
You see, there's a big freaking difference here: the people who did Kraith were Fans and it was a work of Love trying to flesh out a background for Vulcans and Surak's Construct... Oh, and yeah, they Did have some contact with deities--D.C. Fontana was one... The trio I mention above are nothing but talentless hack kids who'd just as well make Transformers 4 thru 40 and cash-in on every cent they can wring out of robo-brained fan tots... Now read my lips: They Do Not Understand Science Fiction... The closest they get to SF is Comic Books... They've no love for Trek--it's just the latest and greatest cash cow that's fallen into their lucky laps to fuel their millionaire lifestyles!
Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer were not Star Trek fans. They're on record as such. Being a Trekkie is most definitely not a prerequisite to making a good Star Trek film. An understanding of what made Trek great definitely is... but I think you and I are going to disagree on what that is, exactly. Abrams tapped into the Trek that I love. IDIC and all that, right?

As much as I would love JJ Abrams' money, I won't hate on the guy just for being rich. Jealous, yes. Hate? No. Do you really think the other Trek filmmakers weren't financially very well off also?

I was born in January 1984. Does that make me less of a fan? We may have different viewpoints on what makes good Star Trek, we may like different elements of it to different extents. I have hundreds of novels, comics, manuals, fan materials. I don't love or even like them all, but I love Trek.
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Old April 20 2013, 12:29 PM   #139
BillJ
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

There's just no respect for the past anymore... No respect for the dead...
Please... I have this on my bedside table:

But I don't mind someone tinkering, I don't mind someone trying to improve it. Doesn't mean it will always be successful.
If I had one of those on my bedside table, I'd never leave the bed... It'd be better than sex...
First night after I got it, I was sitting in bed playing with it and my wife asked if she should sleep on the floor so we could be alone. I told my wife yes and to leave one of her pillows for the Enterprise.

She was not amused...
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Last edited by BillJ; April 20 2013 at 12:44 PM.
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Old April 20 2013, 12:43 PM   #140
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

trevanian wrote: View Post

But you clearly can't see that. Too put out by some matte lines and film grain and other aspects that put the VFX squarely (and appropriately) in the same era as the live-action, I guess.
Matte lines and film grain vs. low-poly models and overlighting.

It's wrong and, quite frankly, insulting to insinuate that people can't see the flaws in the new effects. You've obviously missed some of the conversations between RAMA and myself over the quality of the new effects.

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

Secondly, and this is really obvious... The blind worship of anyone who takes the center seat... Let me throw some names around here: J.J. Abrams, Roberto Orci, and Alex Kurtzman...
Blind worship? I've thoroughly tore Star Trek 2009 a new ass because of what I saw as story flaws. But a couple of things saved it for me, I liked how the film was directed and I thought the actors were, for the most part, pretty good portraying the characters I grew up with.

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Basically I got the impression that this was to be a Much longer, better novel and he just ran out of time, or effort, or something and said screw-it, and decided to whip up a hair-brained conclusion in 10 minutes out of thin air and be done with it...
I think if you reread the book, you'll see where he was going with it pretty early on.

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

One question: Where do you draw the line?
I draw the line with my wallet/time. If they go in a direction I disapprove of, I simply withhold my cash. Same with any other product I'm interested in purchasing.
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Old April 20 2013, 12:48 PM   #141
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol is evidently describing fanon. A lot of it was interesting and often enough more so than later "official" canon. Often enough it often made a lot more sense than what came later from TBTB. Some good stuff came out of fanon and even made it into print such as some of the earliest novels. James Blish's references to the Earth/Romulan war in his adaptation of "Balance Of Terror" became part of fanon which in turn became part of Diane Duanes's The Romulan Way and Diane Carey's Final Frontier. Judith and Garfield Reeves-Steven's Federation is a far better take on Zefram Cochrane than the nonsense of TNG's FC. And, of course, there's John M. Ford's The Final Reflection which is a great bit of Klingon backstory more interesting than what TNG gave us.

Fanon did predate FJ which in turn encouraged even more fanon. I didn't always agree with some of it, but it could be fascinating.
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Old April 20 2013, 01:10 PM   #142
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol is evidently describing fanon. A lot of it was interesting and often enough more so than later "official" canon. Often enough it often made a lot more sense than what came later from TBTB. Some good stuff came out of fanon and even made it into print such as some of the earliest novels. James Blish's references to the Earth/Romulan war in his adaptation of "Balance Of Terror" became part of fanon which in turn became part of Diane Duanes's The Romulan Way and Diane Carey's Final Frontier. Judith and Garfield Reeves-Steven's Federation is a far better take on Zefram Cochrane than the nonsense of TNG's FC. And, of course, there's John M. Ford's The Final Reflection which is a great bit of Klingon backstory more interesting than what TNG gave us.

Fanon did predate FJ which in turn encouraged even more fanon. I didn't always agree with some of it, but it could be fascinating.
I'm fine with fanon, read quite a bit of it over the years. But it's just ludicrous that people get twisted in knots when live-action contradicts it. No writer should be required to read and be consistent with every bit of non-licensed/licensed material out there that is only read by a very small portion of the fan-base.
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Old April 20 2013, 01:34 PM   #143
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol is evidently describing fanon. A lot of it was interesting and often enough more so than later "official" canon. Often enough it often made a lot more sense than what came later from TBTB. Some good stuff came out of fanon and even made it into print such as some of the earliest novels. James Blish's references to the Earth/Romulan war in his adaptation of "Balance Of Terror" became part of fanon which in turn became part of Diane Duanes's The Romulan Way and Diane Carey's Final Frontier. Judith and Garfield Reeves-Steven's Federation is a far better take on Zefram Cochrane than the nonsense of TNG's FC. And, of course, there's John M. Ford's The Final Reflection which is a great bit of Klingon backstory more interesting than what TNG gave us.

Fanon did predate FJ which in turn encouraged even more fanon. I didn't always agree with some of it, but it could be fascinating.
I'm fine with fanon, read quite a bit of it over the years. But it's just ludicrous that people get twisted in knots when live-action contradicts it. No writer should be required to read and be consistent with every bit of non-licensed/licensed material out there that is only read by a very small portion of the fan-base.
I can't argue that. A big difference between then and now is that then the fans were the ones who kept things going built on a mere 79 episodes of TOS, 22 episodes of TAS, a few books and then later the earliest films. But from the mid '80s onward the weight of materiel became ponderous even as source materiel drifted further from its origins. After ten to twenty years of fan speculation some could have felt pushed aside (in a manner of speaking) as TBTB put their heavy stamp of "official" on everything.

Fanon still exists, though, as evidenced by new novels and fans still speculating and drawing and modelling new ship designs regardless that any of it could be "officially" negated in a forthcoming film or TV series.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:36 PM   #144
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol is evidently describing fanon. A lot of it was interesting and often enough more so than later "official" canon. Often enough it often made a lot more sense than what came later from TBTB. Some good stuff came out of fanon and even made it into print such as some of the earliest novels. James Blish's references to the Earth/Romulan war in his adaptation of "Balance Of Terror" became part of fanon which in turn became part of Diane Duanes's The Romulan Way and Diane Carey's Final Frontier. Judith and Garfield Reeves-Steven's Federation is a far better take on Zefram Cochrane than the nonsense of TNG's FC. And, of course, there's John M. Ford's The Final Reflection which is a great bit of Klingon backstory more interesting than what TNG gave us.

Fanon did predate FJ which in turn encouraged even more fanon. I didn't always agree with some of it, but it could be fascinating.
I'm fine with fanon, read quite a bit of it over the years. But it's just ludicrous that people get twisted in knots when live-action contradicts it. No writer should be required to read and be consistent with every bit of non-licensed/licensed material out there that is only read by a very small portion of the fan-base.
Nobody is saying that writers should be required to read every bit of non-licensed material. In fact, you may find this hard to believe, but Most of the non-licensed material (Hate that term!) tries hard to Be consistent with the mainstream materials. I mean, after all, we Are all dealing more or less in the Same Universe here. The non-licensed material in fact does best when it's trying to Explain inconsistencies and fill-in the blanks which mainstream/call it Aired materials fail to do...

But there are certain basic things which are not in the more substantial material which should be but never made it and which most fans Do buy into... Such as how and why the Klingons are using a ship called a Klingon Bird of Prey in ST III: the end result of the brief Klingon-Romulan alliance (of "The Enterprise Incident" which is obviously how and why Klingons are using cloaking devices)... E ignored this... Likewise in 2009 Trek we have "Klingon Warbirds" in the Kobayashi Maru simulator as well...
Really, all that's needed is a genuine f-a-n to proofread scripts so as to avoid stupid errors like these...

Getting back to the above, don't sweep everything into a "non-licensed" category: because much of what I'm at least speaking of is covered in the novels and they are all licensed, even the old Bantam ones...
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Old April 20 2013, 03:42 PM   #145
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

They should have turned those static 'displays' ringing the Enterprise bridge into REAL displays.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:47 PM   #146
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

Getting back to the above, don't sweep everything into a "non-licensed" category:
I didn't, which is specifically why I put "non-licensed/licensed" in my post.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:59 PM   #147
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

King Daniel wrote: View Post

If these are so well researched, why doesn't the S.S Aurora have the same nacelles it did in the episode? Why doesn't the Independece-class freighter match the S.S Huron from "Pirates of Orion"? I love those old fan-made blueprints too, but they took plenty of liberties with the source material. Not that it's a crime to do so - I just don't think they're as well researched as you believe.

Also, Franz Joseph was not a fan of Star Trek! His daughter Karen was. You *really* should read that link I keep giving you.
http://www.trekplace.com/fj-kdint01.html
She is the reason Tech Fandom exists. He blueprinted the Enterprise for her.

but I think you and I are going to disagree on what that is, exactly. Abrams tapped into the Trek that I love. IDIC and all that, right?
We'll have to agree to disagree Big Time...
I'm tired of this old "FJ was not a fan" bunk... If he wasn't a fan he wouldn't have sunk so much time and effort into what he accomplished! Duh! One brief interview repeated over and over again does nothing for me and in a court of law would be dismissed as hearsay... The fact that Gene Roddenberry Loved and approved of the end results speaks for itself... Not to say the least about legions of fans who've studied his stuff, modeled his stuff, and were just plain inspired by his stuff... And don't hit us over the head how GR changed his mind afterwards... Yeah, decades later after numerous strokes he was Far from the original man he was in the 60s and 70s, too, but let's not get into that story...

The liberties taken in those blueprints are due to many things... The Independence class freighter of TAS for one was rough for the simple reason that it was blueprinted in the mid-70s before we had these things called DVD and even before VHS tapes... There was very little to go on, and TAS stills alone were Very very hard to come by back then... I know, because I hunted for them like crazy and eventually was lucky enough to tape some edited episodes off the air circa 1980; prior to that I only had over the air audio tapes to go by...

Tech Fandom takes into account minute differences as yard changes, upgrades, and at the very worst sub-class offshoots...

Maybe if you were there from the beginning in the 70s you'd have a different perspective... Back when you were lucky to be able to pick up a new novel once or twice a YEAR and anything new was gobbled up by fans and appreciated...
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Old April 20 2013, 06:57 PM   #148
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
The Aurora Class (NCC-C1200) space cruiser is an integral component of Treknical history... She's been thoroughly blueprinted and, in fact, is probably one of the most detailed and researched 2-sheeter ever...
An Aurora even appears in the hangar cutaway of the Durance class cargo/tug booklet of general plans...

Some of us fans take these little "throwaway scraps" far more seriously than other more "casual" fans...
To some of us, Star Trek IS a sacred, religious relic...
But those are fanzines! Made by fans who never had any connection to Star Trek beyond watching and enjoying it. It's like complaining that Kraith or other famous fanzine stories were ignored and contradicted. Please explain to me why sheets of fan-made diagrams be considered sacred when fan-written stories aren't?
Because these "fanzines" (not really what I'm talking about, but discrete blueprint packs) expanded upon--built upon--the little genre known as Tech Fandom... This is the legacy of Franz Joseph & Friends... Pushing the envelope of analyzing and blueprinting everything that ever was in Star Trek... Taking this universe as though it were plausible and scientifically sound and real... But I of course can't expect the uninitiated to possibly understand...

Don't talk to me about fans who never had any connection... I say this for 2 reasons:

First, anyone serious enough and talented enough in drafting and blueprinting can analyze things and put 2 and 2 together... And draw and make assumptions and Build upon previous works and Extrapolate from previous works... They don't have to be "blessed" by Gene Roddenberry or any other deity connected to the show; they simply have to be able to Do Their Homework Right...
I can also talk about another fan who spent years reading and re-reading hundreds of Trek books and Documenting tiny bits of trivia for inclusion in a massive timeline... He wasn't "blessed" either, just a Fan... But he did his work well...

Secondly, and this is really obvious... The blind worship of anyone who takes the center seat... Let me throw some names around here: J.J. Abrams, Roberto Orci, and Alex Kurtzman... It took the combined intellect of these kids to create something which no man has ever created before, and I think you have a good idea of what I'm talking about... Basically, the least talented persons together in the right place and the right time--and with NO qualifications whatsoever or even a liking of Star Trek (half of them weren't even Born when TOS first aired)...
I'd sooner see Kraith and other old zine series become elevated to something worthy of being filmed or cataloged long before I give this trio any credit...
You see, there's a big freaking difference here: the people who did Kraith were Fans and it was a work of Love trying to flesh out a background for Vulcans and Surak's Construct... Oh, and yeah, they Did have some contact with deities--D.C. Fontana was one... The trio I mention above are nothing but talentless hack kids who'd just as well make Transformers 4 thru 40 and cash-in on every cent they can wring out of robo-brained fan tots... Now read my lips: They Do Not Understand Science Fiction... The closest they get to SF is Comic Books... They've no love for Trek--it's just the latest and greatest cash cow that's fallen into their lucky laps to fuel their millionaire lifestyles!
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
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I'm curious what poor Greg Cox did in The Rings of Time? He seems like a pretty hardcore Trekkie and I thought the books was quite good.
Really the wrong thread to discuss it... I agree with you that Greg Cox is an above-average Trek writer (too much in the "continuty porn" department for my taste though--Not the problem with this particular book though!), but "Rings" was So far off the beaten path of his style of writing that I'm almost convinced that he had someone ghostwrite that thing... Starts out promising (and I was hoping there'd be a nice temporal twist--boy was I let down!) but by the time you realize there's only a few pages left and there's no way to satisfactorily conclude it, he makes a sharp turn and disappoints...
(I'm talking about something just short of It-was-all-a-dream kinda thing, for Gene's sake!)

Basically I got the impression that this was to be a Much longer, better novel and he just ran out of time, or effort, or something and said screw-it, and decided to whip up a hair-brained conclusion in 10 minutes out of thin air and be done with it...

It's unquestionably Cox's worst Trek novel of all-time...
Very disappointing...

Rates right up there with a first-time Trek author's work from the previous year... Forgot the title of it... A Treknical award-winner though for featuring cameos from just about every crewmember on the Enterprise, all 400 of them (or it certainly Read that way!)...and contained such brilliant logic such as relocating the Bridge to Sickbay!
You, sir, have some serious issues concerning canon that need to be worked out-perhaps a talk with a therapist or psychiatrist might help.

Ever better, I'll refer you to Leonard Nimoy's quote about the 2009 movie and butthurt fans like you trapped in the past:

"Canon is only important to certain people because they have to cling to their knowledge of the minutiae. Open your mind! Be a Star Trek fan and open your mind and say, 'Where does Star Trek want to take me now'."
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Old April 20 2013, 08:31 PM   #149
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

I've stated my opinions and I'm sure few if any will agree with them... That's the story of my life... I don't hop on the bandwagon and blindly follow crowds... I like to reason my own course out beforehand... I'm a thinking man in an unpopular world of herd instinct Borg...

I for one do not believe that Star Trek is in the "right hands" as of J.J. Abram's ascent to the throne... I not only say this for Star Trek but for Star Wars as well...

Science fiction films in general have deteriorated in the 21st Century to kids flicks; super heros and super villains, what have you... All CGI, ridiculously overblown stunts, explosions, shaky cam, lens flares, bad writing, bad acting, No plot, No character development... No Intelligence Left!

I just don't want to see Star Trek take that route...
It's probably too late already!

Yeah, I can take a good bubblegum/popcorn flick and turn my brain off for a movie every now and the, too...but not Constantly Off... I miss meaningful SF... What do we have now? All in-your-face rollercoaster rides... FX for no reason other to keep the simplest of senses going in our attention-deficit world... No wonder 3-D is returning--they're desperate to introduce Any gimmick to keep alive the dying film industry! And they can use it to boost the price of tickets, too!

But what do I know... Maybe I'm just this old fart who has trouble adapting to change...
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Old April 20 2013, 08:44 PM   #150
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
I've stated my opinions and I'm sure few if any will agree with them... That's the story of my life... I don't hop on the bandwagon and blindly follow crowds... I like to reason my own course out beforehand... I'm a thinking man in an unpopular world of herd instinct Borg...
Perhaps you're simply overthinking something that has always been entertainment for most of us?

There's enough going on in the real world.
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