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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old February 8 2013, 07:08 PM   #46
DarthTom
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sort of conspiracy given that Orci is writing it. The thing I wonder though is if such a thing happened, why did it not also happen in the original timeline? Regardless of whatever the conspiracy is, how could it even be linked to the Botany Bay since no one even really knew about it? Perhaps the only way anybody would know it now is because Spock Prime told them.
There are a million possibilities. We see what appears to be cryogenic tubs. We've heard on trailers CumberKhan [as Dennis calls him] say he's 'better at everything.' So it's also possible that he another one of the genetically engineered super humans left on earth and a relative of Khan's or at least a member of his group of super-humans.
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Old February 8 2013, 07:41 PM   #47
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

Revisiting the Khan of "Space Seed", things between what's said of Cumberbatch's character and Khan are highly correlated. Harrison obviously wants to disrupt the status quo to create a new order. In "Space Seed", when Marla tells Khan that she doesn't think he'll like living in their time, he responds that he'll have to "remold it to my liking."

Cumberbatch says Harrison has very strong powers of persuasion and the ability to play people off of each other. In the exchange between Marla and Khan as Marla finally falls for him, Khan manipulated her masterfully in order to gain her cooperation and get her to turn against her captain and Starfleet oath.

As Khan tries to take over the Enterprise (and once before in an exchange with Kirk), he says he's surprised by how little humans have improved, and while technology has improved, that only improves productivity. What's important is actually improving man. He is the improved man. A superior being. A rightful ruler. You can hear Khan in "Space Seed" saying to the crew of the technologically advanced Enterprise, "You think your world is safe? It is an illusion. A comforting lie told to protect you." In other words, your technology will not save you from a superior human being. It won't save you from Khan.

I'm 99% sure Harrison is Khan. But if he is really Khan, then I hope there is a very, very, very plausible, believable, and non-convoluted reason for how he got thawed out and ended up with a career in Starfleet. That would resolve my 1% of doubt.
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Old February 8 2013, 07:57 PM   #48
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

Maybe that's where Weller's character comes in. He thaws Khan out and either loses control of him or is in on the terrorist plot.
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Old February 8 2013, 08:09 PM   #49
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

The Stig wrote: View Post
Maybe that's where Weller's character comes in. He thaws Khan out and either loses control of him or is in on the terrorist plot.
Could be. I'd pay real money to know some facts about Weller's character or at least why so little (nothing, really) is said about him and his role in the story.
As some veils are now being lifted on parts of the story and on the major characters, Weller's character is still wrapped in burlap.
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Old February 8 2013, 08:16 PM   #50
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

The Stig wrote: View Post
Maybe that's where Weller's character comes in. He thaws Khan out and either loses control of him or is in on the terrorist plot.
I think it's possible that John Harrison is a guy from the Botany Bay (another "Superman") who gets thawed out by Peter Weller instead of thawing out Khan.

I'm not saying I think that's definitely what the film is about, or if Khan's people and the Botany Bay are part of it at all, but without any other plot information to go by, that's as good a possibility as any.
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Old February 8 2013, 09:17 PM   #51
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

First Benedict Cumberbatch is Khan, then Gary Mitchell then "John Harrison" Now Khan again. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS Paramount. I call BS on the whole thing. Simon Pegg said Kahn isn't in it. then Karl Urban said he was Gary Mitchell then Benedict Cumberbatch was revealed to be John Harrison. I think EW is just making a publicity stunt. I'm just waiting till I see the movie. I really hope it's not Space Seed redone.
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Old February 8 2013, 09:30 PM   #52
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

CaptainMurdock wrote: View Post
First Benedict Cumberbatch is Khan, then Gary Mitchell then "John Harrison" Now Khan again. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS Paramount. I call BS on the whole thing. Simon Pegg said Kahn isn't in it. then Karl Urban said he was Gary Mitchell then Benedict Cumberbatch was revealed to be John Harrison. I think EW is just making a publicity stunt. I'm just waiting till I see the movie. I really hope it's not Space Seed redone.
It obviously won't be Space Seed redone. The circumstances are totally different.
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Old February 8 2013, 09:35 PM   #53
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

BillJ wrote: View Post
CaptainMurdock wrote: View Post
First Benedict Cumberbatch is Khan, then Gary Mitchell then "John Harrison" Now Khan again. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS Paramount. I call BS on the whole thing. Simon Pegg said Kahn isn't in it. then Karl Urban said he was Gary Mitchell then Benedict Cumberbatch was revealed to be John Harrison. I think EW is just making a publicity stunt. I'm just waiting till I see the movie. I really hope it's not Space Seed redone.
It obviously won't be Space Seed redone. The circumstances are totally different.
True, but the idea of redoing Khan just feels like a cop-out. But we won't know until we see the movie.
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Old February 8 2013, 09:47 PM   #54
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

Please stay with me on this. Sorry for its length.

In "Space Seed", Spock finds out that 80 or 90 of the supermen from the Eugenics Wars are not accounted for. Kirk says there's no record of that in the history books. Spock says, "Would you reveal to war-weary populations that some eighty Napoleons might still be alive?"

Hmm.

In light of what Nero did, the population of the Federation is probably very weary and probably wouldn't cope well with news of another big threat. That is, 80 Napoleons running around at a time with a weakened Starfleet and diminished Federation.

Say the crew of the Botany Bay was found shortly after the events of ST09 and transfered to a spot in London where they're being secretly kept in stasis until it's decided what should be done with them.

Cumberbatch really is simply a 23rd century human in Starfleet named, John Harrison. He becomes "the Marla" in this story. Assigned to maintain the crew in stasis, over time he becomes fascinated by Khan and what he stood for. He finds out all he can about Khan and his times, about Eugenics, and becomes intrigued by what the leaders of that time were trying to do, thinking it was not all bad, and may have actually been for a greater good (like being able to cure a dying child in 2258).

His "coming over" to that way of thinking may not be too far-fetched. In "Space Seed" even Kirk, Scotty, and McCoy showed admiration for Khan based on what they knew of him, and said he was the least violent and "best" of the tyrants (all to Spock's shock). Someone even more drawn to him may go a step further and ally with him in principle.

Harrison begins to surreptiously extract their genetic secrets and builds himself up in private like an athlete does with PEDs. Over a period of months he becomes a superman, himself. Something he hides, just as Dr. Bashir did decades later.

When a decision comes down about how to handle the crew of the Botany Bay, he's against it but is in no position to protest. Starfleet decides it would be too dangerous at this time to thaw the crew.

Harrison wanted the discovery of the crew made public, and he wants them taken out of stasis. As he sees it, they offer things to mankind that it can't get, otherwise. He feels what they felt. He is what they are. He is improved, and now Starfleet stands in the way of improving mankind. Leaving them in stasis is cruel and even foolish, so Cumberbatch essentially "outs" himself and goes rogue for their cause.

"You think you are safe? It is an illusion." That is, Starfleet knows that you're really not safe. They're scared of 80 Napoleons, and they are hiding it from you. Now, Harrison will show it. He will provide an environment for real leadership and advancement.

That would at least be his backstory. Little of that would have to shown be on screen. It could come out in dribs and drabs of exposition.
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Old February 8 2013, 09:52 PM   #55
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

Jackson_Roykirk wrote: View Post
I think it's possible that John Harrison is a guy from the Botany Bay (another "Superman") who gets thawed out by Peter Weller instead of thawing out Khan.
Not that it really matters, but Khan was the first to thaw automatically once the away team beamed over there. It was set up that way so that he could determine if the rest of the people should be revived. So unless they killed Khan, it's likely he'd be awake too.
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Old February 8 2013, 10:06 PM   #56
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

CaptainMurdock wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
CaptainMurdock wrote: View Post
First Benedict Cumberbatch is Khan, then Gary Mitchell then "John Harrison" Now Khan again. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS Paramount. I call BS on the whole thing. Simon Pegg said Kahn isn't in it. then Karl Urban said he was Gary Mitchell then Benedict Cumberbatch was revealed to be John Harrison. I think EW is just making a publicity stunt. I'm just waiting till I see the movie. I really hope it's not Space Seed redone.
It obviously won't be Space Seed redone. The circumstances are totally different.
True, but the idea of redoing Khan just feels like a cop-out. But we won't know until we see the movie.
I don't think so. While Khan may seem fresh to the nerd crowd (me included), it's been thirty-one years since he's been on the screen.

He'll be a fresh face to the general ticket buyers.
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Old February 8 2013, 10:20 PM   #57
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

CaptainMurdock wrote: View Post
True, but the idea of redoing Khan just feels like a cop-out.
Nonsense.

It's fiction re-treads happen, some of them even rather excellently.
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Old February 8 2013, 10:26 PM   #58
CaptainMurdock
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

I will say this, as a fan of St09 This movie looks promising.
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Old February 8 2013, 10:57 PM   #59
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

As Harrison becomes sympathetic to Singh and his cause, and even more ambitious, confident, and emboldened (and maybe dillusional) by the genetic advantages he's given himself from knowledge taken from the crew of the Botany Bay as they lie in stasis, maybe he gives himself the title of Khan as he takes on their cause (as he sees it) for them. Like Garth taking the title, Lord. (Pause for hails of derisive laughter.)

It would be just like Abrams and Orci to love the ambiguity that creates. They can deny "Khan" is in it, because they know everyone who asks means TWOK Khan, and that's not who Harrison is. Yet Singh is in it thematically, because he has influenced the course of Harrison's life and created his great cause. This could create even more ambiguity in the movie, because Harrison could tell Kirk, "I am Khan," and leave it at that, even though he isn't.

Far-fetched, but who knows? Throw enough stuff onto the wall, and something eventually sticks.
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Last edited by Franklin; February 8 2013 at 11:16 PM.
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Old February 8 2013, 11:37 PM   #60
Jackson_Roykirk
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Re: Entertainment Weekly Star Trek Into Darkness Issue

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Jackson_Roykirk wrote: View Post
I think it's possible that John Harrison is a guy from the Botany Bay (another "Superman") who gets thawed out by Peter Weller instead of thawing out Khan.
Not that it really matters, but Khan was the first to thaw automatically once the away team beamed over there. It was set up that way so that he could determine if the rest of the people should be revived. So unless they killed Khan, it's likely he'd be awake too.

Two possibilities:

1. In Space Seed, Khan almost died when he was revived. Maybe this time, he DOES die.

2. Scotty triggered the suspended animation chamber to awaken Khan when he was jiggering with the lights. Maybe this time around, the people who find the Botany Bay are more careful. So instead of Khan waking automatically, the people who find the Botany Bay wake Harrison instead (maybe they picked him for a reason, or no particular reason at all).
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