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Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old June 28 2013, 07:08 PM   #256
Scout101
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Wow. Relax.
No one's heated, don't try and paint me as emotional to cover the fact that you presented a bad argument. I just refuted the examples you were using, since they were, you know, bad examples...

The things you are arguing with me about are things I already agree with you about. I'm talking about the media image that ESPN tries to cram down our throat. What you perceive as a knock to your beloved Patriots was in fact a knock on the media. In fact if you dig deep what you will see is a compliment to the organization.
So why counter-point my 'argument' with you again? Just to violently agree? We're in agreement, don't take more shots at me doing it...

The media consistently praises the organization for getting hard working stand up guys that for the most part stay out of trouble which make the Patriots this model franchise.
Absolutely agree it was a media-driven thing. Will argue that the Pats tend to keep their noses cleaner than most, but they aren't saints. Tough people playing a violent game. In general, you DO read about the Pats less than a lot of other teams in the court news, though. They aren't absent completely, though. Happens to every team, even if 52 of the 53 guys on the roster are at bible camp all spring, there will be one idiot at a club or with an illegal gun somewhere. It's that kind of culture that a lot of players come from...

They lambast the Jets for being a media circus for signing Tebow but somehow its ok with the Patriots.
Jets are a joke, what do you expect? And when they do nothing but run their mouths, they reap what they sow there. They let the 3rd string QB become a media circus and talk to the press constantly. Do you see the press getting constant access to him in New England? They tried to make it a big deal for a while, and the Pats just kinda shut it down. He's not holding court here...

The only thing I am saying is that this myth of getting hard working blue collar players that keep their nose clean simply isn't true.
which i said, agreed with, and provided better examples of that you missed...

Hoodie and Kraft don't give a shit about character or the baggage the player brings to a team. (THAT IS A GOOD THING) They care about filling key spaces. All of the players I listed above have a prior history of being a distraction, lack of work ethic or simply being a diva. Belichick has the ability to look past that stuff and revive a players career. The only one that he really couldn't fix was Haynesworth.
That doesn't really agrue against the Patriots Way thing you're disputing, though. Those are mostly examples of players being a problem elsewhere, and then through change of scenery, coaching, or locker room presence, were turned into quiet and productive players. Which is closer to Patriots Way than not. Nonsense, just pointing out you used terrible examples is all.

List revisited.
Without requoting it all, what's your *new* point? The writeups got better, but it just shows that they were bad or distractions before, but mostly behaved or performed better in New England. What are you trying to show? I don't get it. If you wanted it to say what you think it does, you needed to list the Pats' OWN bad apples, not the guys that screwed up before getting a 2nd (or more) chance with the Pats. Like the list I gave you...


The only thing I am saying is that there is this myth that the Patriots set themselves apart from the other teams in the NFL by having these lofty standards when the real key to their success is the best head coach and QB in the game. The "Patriot Way" isn't a team full of Reggie White's. It is a team full of players that get a second chance with a coach that knows how to fit them into a position where they will be successful.
QB/Coach really is the big key. So many of the Qbs in the league are TERRIBLE, and make STUPID decisions. The coaches are even worse. The biggest part of the Pats' successful strategy is usually just to try and play it straight and wait for the other team to screw up or make a bad decision, and then take advantage of it. You don't have to be great to win in this league; all you have to do is wait for the other team to shoot themselves in the foot, and then be ready to take advantage. happens all the time.

It's possible I presented this badly
yes, which is the reason I commented, and showed you why. Your examples torpedo your point, mostly. You fixed them, but they still don't say what you're trying to get them to.

but it's also possible you had a knee jerk reaction to somebody "bad mouthing" your team.
You WANT that part to be true, but it really wasn't some homer reaction, just pointing out that while your main premise is mostly true, everything you used to try and show it said the opposite of what you wanted them to, and actually argued against your point. Not heated or emotional here, despite your trying to paint me that way. Just disputing what you said.

The murder thing stands on its own, and nowhere to really lay blame there except Hernandez. Don't think 31 other teams passed because they knew he'd murder someone (and then try and cover it up like a 3rd grader), just an idiot making an idiotic, thuggish decision. Disappointing to say the least.

The high praise for the Patriots by the media is well deserved but often misrepresentative of what exactly it is that makes them a perennial contender. There is a "Patriot Way" it's just evolved past that of the Super Bowl teams of the mid 2000's.
no arguemnt there. HOF Quarterback and Head Coach, strong middle class of players vice a few superstars and then scrubs (to mitigate injury, in part), and try not to do anything stupid, be ready to pounce on the other team when they eventually DO something stupid. Pretty much the keys to winning in the NFL.
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Old June 28 2013, 07:26 PM   #257
Use of Time
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Man I didn't take any shots at you I just elaborated on a post because you seemed to get really defensive about the Pats real fast. All I was trying to do was separate criticism of the Patriots and the media. You keep claiming I'm not making my premise clear. I don't even know what to say at this point. The players I listed are indicative of what I believe to be the real strength of the franchise (except Haynesworth). You provided good examples as well. They have the ability to get more out of a player than most other franchises. Thats it. It doesn't go any deeper than that. I'm really struggling to understand what your problem is at this point. There isn't any "new point" I'm trying to make. My second post was just an attempt to spell it out. We cool?
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Old June 28 2013, 08:40 PM   #258
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Man I didn't take any shots at you
Nope, just attempted to brush off my (correct) criticism of your post as the kneejerk reactions of a hysterical fan rather than address my actual point (which was that you picked crap examples and had a faulty premise).

I just elaborated on a post because you seemed to get really defensive about the Pats real fast.
Again, not defensive, not emotional, just picking apart your bad examples. You keep trying to dismiss me by stating that you're just being all logical and rational whereas i'm the emotional fanboy. THAT'S the only point we're having a problem on

All I was trying to do was separate criticism of the Patriots and the media.
Which i'm on board with, agreed with you, yet you keep snapping back to that like we're arguing it. Agree, and even supplemented it.

You keep claiming I'm not making my premise clear. I don't even know what to say at this point. The players I listed are indicative of what I believe to be the real strength of the franchise (except Haynesworth).
Because that's the opposite of what you said when you started. See?

really don't ever want to hear the phrase "the Patriot way" ever again. The media would have you believe that the Patriots are this model to be emulated of players that play the game unselfishly and play the game the "right way." Here is a list of those players from the last few years that make that phrase bullshit[list removed for brevity]
Unless I'm completely missing what you said, you were trying to show a list of selfish Pats players 'playing the wrong way', and that the 'patriots way' nonsense that the media spews doesn't have any basis in reality. While it IS mostly nonsense, you listed players that were bad for other teams, then behaved with the Pats. Or barely played for the Pats at all. Or in Tebow's case, has been there for like 2 practices and was a non-story, so i don't get his inclusion at all. That was really my only point. Aside from Haynesworth, who was cut for being a fat slob pretty quickly, those examples DON'T show that at all. Tebow hasn't played a snap for the Pats, not sure why you'd even bother to include him at all, you were just short on names I guess...

I'm really struggling to understand what your problem is at this point.
Just that you were trying to make some point similar to 'Christianity is full of thugs', and then tried to use Mother Theresa and Jesus as your examples Not by any stretch saying the Pats are like that, just highlighting how badly your examples supported your point is all.

We cool?
As long as you just address what I'm actually saying instead of trying to handwave it away as hysterical fanboy defensive nonsense, we don't have any problems. If you want to debate what I'm ACTUALLY saying, we can do that, though. But like I said, you're mostly just violently agreeing with me, except for the examples you keep trying to force that just don't work
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Old June 28 2013, 08:57 PM   #259
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Passive agressive smilies aside, you are greatly sensationalizing my comments. How are my examples bad? They are players that were bad eggs on other teams but were productive with the Patriots. That is my point! They are perfect examples of my premise. My whole point is that the "Patriot Way" does not equate to only drafting RKG's (Right Kind of Guy's) as the media would have us believe. The "Patriot Way" as of the last 5 years or so has been to draft needs over "flashy" players and give a second chance to previously troubled players that are nonetheless extremely talented. Just about everybody I listed fits that category. Granted we have no idea what the Tebow situation is going to end up being. I'm not violently agreeing with you. I made a post. You made a rude and condescending response which caused me to elaborate. I'm not arguing with anybody. I'm trying to explain myself to you and even acknowledged my initial post didn't clearly outline my premise. You seem to want to nail me to the cross over this for some reason. Yes, my initial thought was that you were being somewhat of an emotional homer but that was mainly due to the hostility displayed in the way you responded to my first post. I sincerely apologize to you if I am mistaken.
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Old June 28 2013, 10:13 PM   #260
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

"passive aggressive", "rude and condescending", "emotional homer", and "hostility". It's an interesting apology...

For what feels like the 4th or 5th time now: I agree with the general point you've worked towards, just disagreed with your INITIAL post (which I keep posting), and the examples that ended up saying the opposite of what you were trying to say (IMO). I can't find the energy to quote them again and make the same case. I agree with what you are saying NOW, just not what you said originally. You just keep beating me into repeating why the examples didn't work. Whatever, I can't deal with the examples again and say it much differently, so either you'll get there, or not, not much else to say.

BTW, not sure you can accuse someone of greatly sensationalizing comments AND trying to nail you to the cross (on a BBS!) in the same post and have it be credible. Was that really what I was doing, or were you sensationalizing?

Anyway, moving on...
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Old June 28 2013, 10:28 PM   #261
Use of Time
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Scout101 wrote: View Post
"passive aggressive", "rude and condescending", "emotional homer", and "hostility". It's an interesting apology...

For what feels like the 4th or 5th time now: I agree with the general point you've worked towards, just disagreed with your INITIAL post (which I keep posting), and the examples that ended up saying the opposite of what you were trying to say (IMO). I can't find the energy to quote them again and make the same case. I agree with what you are saying NOW, just not what you said originally. You just keep beating me into repeating why the examples didn't work. Whatever, I can't deal with the examples again and say it much differently, so either you'll get there, or not, not much else to say.

BTW, not sure you can accuse someone of greatly sensationalizing comments AND trying to nail you to the cross (on a BBS!) in the same post and have it be credible. Was that really what I was doing, or were you sensationalizing?

Anyway, moving on...
All of which I clarified in subsequent posts. Your attitude through this whole discussion has been abnormally hostile for someone that agrees with my premise as a whole. You seem more interested in getting the better of me then discussing the issue. I've done more than enough to explain my position and even offered an apology if my original suspicions were incorrect. For someone that claims to be a calm rational non-homer your initial post was anything but that.
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Old June 28 2013, 11:16 PM   #262
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Dude. Said I was done with it, assume you're just trying to poke me for a better response to declare victory on at this point? I'm the emotional asshole, but you'll toss out the same insult one more time to see if I'll bite? Can continue the debate by yourself, as you're just seeing what you want from my posts anyway, and I can't convince you of anything anyway.

Post once more so you can 'win' and have the last word, and then let's give the thread back, k?
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Old June 29 2013, 12:10 AM   #263
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Dude. Said I was done with it, assume you're just trying to poke me for a better response to declare victory on at this point? I'm the emotional asshole, but you'll toss out the same insult one more time to see if I'll bite? Can continue the debate by yourself, as you're just seeing what you want from my posts anyway, and I can't convince you of anything anyway.

Post once more so you can 'win' and have the last word, and then let's give the thread back, k?
haha. There isn't even a debate. There never was. I posted a premise that obviously went over your head. Instead of asking for clarification like an adult you decided to respond like a petulant child. I clarified my original post and my guess is that you probably felt a little silly writing that two post missive in defense of your team which was completely unnecessary. So instead of saying "oh, I see what you are saying" you decided to protect your ego instead and go on the offensive. Then you want to walk away with your "lets get the thread back on track" after posting something you know I will respond to. Let me remind you that you are the one that jacked this thread after my initial post which you completely misinterpreted and wasn't even directed at you.
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Old June 29 2013, 04:27 AM   #264
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion



Feel better?
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Old June 29 2013, 04:39 AM   #265
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Yep.
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Old June 29 2013, 06:49 PM   #266
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Why did Aaron Hernandez call Wes Welker?

He needed help from a white Bronco.
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Old June 29 2013, 06:52 PM   #267
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Apparently the Patriots are accepting trade ins for those that recently purchased Hernandez jersey's.

Link http://deadspin.com/pats-fans-can-ge...erna-612235311
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Old June 30 2013, 11:42 AM   #268
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Nice move. Those jerseys aren't cheap and I wouldn't my kid (if I had one) wearing one for a guy involved in three murder investigations.
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Old June 30 2013, 01:42 PM   #269
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

Yep, a really good gesture. They immediately distanced themselves from Hernandez which is a good thing. Last week when they had the helicopter tracking him running errands and stuff they showed him stopping at Gillette stadium for a brief visit. Apparently he was refused entry by stadium security. Message received for Hernandez. You are on your own dude.
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Old July 1 2013, 10:30 PM   #270
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Re: NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion

This article seems strangely topical in this forum.

http://deadspin.com/dear-columnists-...lshi-637957310
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