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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old February 26 2013, 01:47 PM   #391
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Of all the arguments to have over Star Trek, Kirk and co. blowing up the bad guys at the end is about as low down on the list as it gets.
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Old February 26 2013, 05:14 PM   #392
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Back to STVI. Chang was dead after the first torpedo hit. The bridge blew up, the ship was crippled and no threat. Yet Kirk and Sulu kept firing until the ship was destroyed - executing the rest of the crew needlessly.
We saw the bridge blow up and knew Chang was dead, Kirk and Sulu did not. They saw an explosion, could have been anywhere on the ship. Supposedly the tail pipe should have been hit which was the far end of the ship away from the bridge.

EyalM wrote: View Post
How about Insurrection? The Enterprise left Rua'fu to be blow up even thought they could have beamed him on board.
And his only crime was trying to heal billions...
I think Riker didn't know about Rua'fu, Picard forgot to mention that.

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Of all the arguments to have over Star Trek, Kirk and co. blowing up the bad guys at the end is about as low down on the list as it gets.
My nachos are flavorless without good nerd argument.
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Old February 26 2013, 06:09 PM   #393
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

im looking at it this way...

STII - kirk offers kahn the opportunity to surrender, live and stat trial and sentencing for war crimes... kahn uses opportunity to try and kill kirk with genesis, kirk even tries to beam aboard to stop it but is told he cant

STIII - kirk tries to offer kruge a hand while on the mountain cliff... kruge uses opportunity to try an pull kirk off the ledge first, kirk saves himself by killing kruge

STVI - kirk finally finds the ship that has been trying to destroy his... after a lucky shot, kirk (and sulu) destroy the BoP to prevent it from recloaking and being difficult to detect again. oh and he prevents a full out war that would have resulted should the assassin be successful.

seems like kirk learned over the first two situations that offering a chance leads to being attacked again and put into a life or death situation that could cost countless lives.

STXI - kirk knows that nero's ship survived a direct ramming by another federation ship to come back and kill millions of people (he read pikes dissertation)... kirk still offers help but when forced to be judge and jury (nero basically pled guilty and showed no remorse) he finds nero guilty and proceeds with sentencing which in this case is death.
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Old February 26 2013, 06:52 PM   #394
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Saul wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
Back to STVI. Chang was dead after the first torpedo hit. The bridge blew up, the ship was crippled and no threat. Yet Kirk and Sulu kept firing until the ship was destroyed - executing the rest of the crew needlessly.
We saw the bridge blow up and knew Chang was dead, Kirk and Sulu did not. They saw an explosion, could have been anywhere on the ship. Supposedly the tail pipe should have been hit which was the far end of the ship away from the bridge.
Except the ship was decloaked and crippled by that first shot. It made no further aggresive moves. They kept firing. Did they even attempt to board? Or scan? It wouldn't have been hard to tell where they'd hit.
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Old February 26 2013, 07:00 PM   #395
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

According to the movie, here's the NTSB accident report

1701-A: Fired torpedo
Impact. Bridge destroyed, bridge crew killed, damaged Bird of Prey decloaked
2000: Targeted impact, fired 2 torpedos
1701-A: Fired 2 torpedos
4 torpedos impact
2000: Fired torpedo
Impact
1701-A: Fired torpedo
Impact, BoP detroyed
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Old February 26 2013, 07:02 PM   #396
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Saul wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
Back to STVI. Chang was dead after the first torpedo hit. The bridge blew up, the ship was crippled and no threat. Yet Kirk and Sulu kept firing until the ship was destroyed - executing the rest of the crew needlessly.
We saw the bridge blow up and knew Chang was dead, Kirk and Sulu did not. They saw an explosion, could have been anywhere on the ship. Supposedly the tail pipe should have been hit which was the far end of the ship away from the bridge.
Except the ship was decloaked and crippled by that first shot. It made no further aggresive moves. They kept firing. Did they even attempt to board? Or scan? It wouldn't have been hard to tell where they'd hit.
no guarantee that the ship is crippled, all the audience sees is a fire infront of chang. kirk and sulu cant see that. plus, sulu specifically states "target that explosion and fire" why would he say that if we can now see the ship? when i view the scene i see the BoP becoming fully visible only after being hit a few more times by torpedoes.
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Old February 26 2013, 07:06 PM   #397
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

mos6507 wrote: View Post
You can say it's some sort of evolutionary improvement and we'll "never go back..."
It's an evolutionary improvement and we'll never go back.

That's just the truth.

Yes, in time it will appear dated, just as the effects from older Star Trek movies and TV shows - or older Star Wars, for that matter - appear limited now. That said, the current techniques and approach will be superceded by something else new that people respond to - not a return to the "traditions" that older viewers are longing for.
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Old February 26 2013, 07:16 PM   #398
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Saul wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
Back to STVI. Chang was dead after the first torpedo hit. The bridge blew up, the ship was crippled and no threat. Yet Kirk and Sulu kept firing until the ship was destroyed - executing the rest of the crew needlessly.
We saw the bridge blow up and knew Chang was dead, Kirk and Sulu did not. They saw an explosion, could have been anywhere on the ship. Supposedly the tail pipe should have been hit which was the far end of the ship away from the bridge.
Except the ship was decloaked and crippled by that first shot. It made no further aggresive moves. They kept firing. Did they even attempt to board? Or scan? It wouldn't have been hard to tell where they'd hit.
It still looked cloaked to me even as they continued to fire, though Squiggy's report says otherwise. If they had fired once and the ship moves from that position then they've lost their one and only chance of defeating that ship. Either the Enterprise or both are destroyed and the Federation president is assassinated thanks to Kirk's showing of mercy.

BTW to Tech heads. Do Birds of Prey have second bridges? Surely torpedo control can be accessed somewhere else on the ship.
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Old February 26 2013, 07:42 PM   #399
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

For what it's worth, it seems as if the first torpedo the Enterprise fired hit the bridge as it's filmed from Chang's point of view. But the explosion as it appears from space is more vague about where the torpedo hit, and the bridge section of the ship looks intact. Indeed, the bridge section of the bird of prey is actually the last thing to blow up when the entire ship finally explodes.

The first shot by the Enterprise is fired at 4:25 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSqCJ-UGYns

(Why does, "Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left," keep going through my mind?)
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Old February 26 2013, 08:06 PM   #400
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

If the first torpedo hit the impulse exhaust without shields, its easy to see a power surge destroying every EPS counduit through the entire ship.

How's that fer some nerd speak?
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Old February 26 2013, 08:37 PM   #401
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

BillJ wrote: View Post
If the first torpedo hit the impulse exhaust without shields, its easy to see a power surge destroying every EPS counduit through the entire ship.

How's that fer some nerd speak?
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Old February 26 2013, 09:42 PM   #402
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
If the first torpedo hit the impulse exhaust without shields, its easy to see a power surge destroying every EPS counduit through the entire ship.

How's that fer some nerd speak?


But let us be serious for a moment here...

When Kirk fired that torpedo at an unshielded impulse exhaust port, he should've had no doubt that it would be a crippling blow (which we see as there are explosions in multiple parts of the ship). The design itself was a decade plus old at least, one of Starfleet's best engineers got the chance to study one up close and personal for three months and it's likely that Starfleet retrieved the remains of the one Kirk crashed into the bay and gave it careful study.

Anyone arguing that one Kirk's "fire everything" is anymore respectable than anothers is simply deluding themselves.
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Old February 26 2013, 10:07 PM   #403
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

BillJ wrote: View Post
SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
If the first torpedo hit the impulse exhaust without shields, its easy to see a power surge destroying every EPS counduit through the entire ship.

How's that fer some nerd speak?


But let us be serious for a moment here...

When Kirk fired that torpedo at an unshielded impulse exhaust port, he should've had no doubt that it would be a crippling blow (which we see as there are explosions in multiple parts of the ship). The design itself was a decade plus old at least, one of Starfleet's best engineers got the chance to study one up close and personal for three months and it's likely that Starfleet retrieved the remains of the one Kirk crashed into the bay and gave it careful study.

Anyone arguing that one Kirk's "fire everything" is anymore respectable than anothers is simply deluding themselves.
Hey, as I said, Nu Kirk's attack is/was no worse than Prime Kirk 's tricking Kruge's men into beaming over then destroying the Enterprise and giving them no chance to escape. Prime Kirk would have pulled the trigger on Nero too. Hell after nuking Vulcan, I seriously doubt that he would have even made the offer to save Nero's ass.
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Old February 26 2013, 10:31 PM   #404
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

BillJ wrote: View Post
But let us be serious for a moment here...

When Kirk fired that torpedo at an unshielded impulse exhaust port, he should've had no doubt that it would be a crippling blow (which we see as there are explosions in multiple parts of the ship). The design itself was a decade plus old at least, one of Starfleet's best engineers got the chance to study one up close and personal for three months and it's likely that Starfleet retrieved the remains of the one Kirk crashed into the bay and gave it careful study.

Anyone arguing that one Kirk's "fire everything" is anymore respectable than anothers is simply deluding themselves.
Of course, that's not what the audience would want to see.

Funny, I didn't find it particularly bloodthirsty behavior by Kirk, at all. Time was of the essence, and the obstacle needed to be removed quickly. Remember, the scene cuts back and forth between the battle and the assassin preparing to shoot as the president gives his speech.

I found Spock's reaction to Kirk offering to rescue Nero and his men far more out of character and bloodthirsty than the things Kirk did that are being discussed here.

In TUC, I'd think any surviving Klingons would've destroyed themselves and the ship rather than face the dishonor of surrender, anyway (and Kirk and Sulu probably knew that). After all, that's what the Romulans did in "Balance of Terror" after Kirk offered to rescue their survivors.
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Old February 26 2013, 10:38 PM   #405
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Re: I hope for more traditional space battles

Franklin wrote: View Post
Funny, I didn't find it particularly bloodthirsty behavior by Kirk, at all. Time was of the essence, and the obstacle needed to be removed quickly. Remember, the scene cuts back and forth between the battle and the assassin preparing to shoot as the president gives his speech.
I don't find either action particularly blood-thirsty either.

But you have some folks trying to define the new version of the character as having a reckless disregard for life. They were both in situations where they could've called off the dogs but didn't.
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