I hope for more traditional space battles

[The Mirrorball Man]

Franklin wrote:

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The space battle in TWOK was the best space battle in Trek, in my opinion. Those were models with 1980s technology, and the FX still hold up pretty well, today. When the Enterprise rises behind the Reliant, the hair stands up on the back of my neck.

True enough, however claiming that it was good is one thing, but saying that we want more of the same is a completely different thing.

[Franklin]

The Mirrorball Man wrote:

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True enough, however claiming that it was good is one thing, but saying that we want more of the same is a completely different thing.

Oh, yeah. It's just still my standard of comparison for having "FX kewl" action, but also being evocative and creating the right amount of tension. The attack on the Kelvin had that, too.

[Worfmonger]

I love the space battles in TWoK and ST'09; I think they're two takes on the same type of battle, though TWoK is limited in detail by the film spfx of the time. You're more in the action in ST'09, imho, as opposed to observing the action in TWoK. I think Undiscovered Country did a nice job with space battles, too, btw.

The DS9 battles were sorely limited by budget, so I'm willing to give them a pass.

What I hated was the battle scenes in all of the TNG movies, most particularly Nemesis. The swooping around like these gigantic ships are X-Wings did not set well with me at all.

YMMV, of course.

[Infern0]

Worfmonger wrote:

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I love the space battles in TWoK and ST'09; I think they're two takes on the same type of battle, though TWoK is limited in detail by the film spfx of the time. You're more in the action in ST'09, imho, as opposed to observing the action in TWoK. I think Undiscovered Country did a nice job with space battles, too, btw.

The DS9 battles were sorely limited by budget, so I'm willing to give them a pass.

What I hated was the battle scenes in all of the TNG movies, most particularly Nemesis. The swooping around like these gigantic ships are X-Wings did not set well with me at all.

YMMV, of course.

well they were a lot more advanced ships so better speed and maneuverability is probably to be expected.

I like the Abrams trek just fine but I don't subscribe to the same level of worship that a lot do on here namely "The Abrams way is the right way"

I PREFER the older style trek battles, where the camera is zoomed out a little more so you can see the whole ships, its slower paced so you can tell what's happening, where are the weapons hitting, what damage is being done etc.

Star Trek 11 basically threw shields out of the window, "shields, what shields" every single shot tore through everything and sent explosions and lens flare going insane, this may be excusable because the romulan vessel had 24th century tech, but this time they cant use that excuse.

here is a space battle in Abrams trek

http://www.cardassiaprimera.com.ar/S...-XI-Battle.jpg


here is a space battle in first contact

http://mimg.ugo.com/201008/55233/cut...55_480x270.jpg

[Images converted to links. Images posted inline must be hosted on your own web space. - M']

point is, I could tell what was happening in one, the other one, not so much.

the word cluster**** comes to mind.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Infern0 wrote:

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the word cluster**** comes to mind.

And appropriately, the word is full of stars.

That's a fair point, but one could argue that real battles of any kind are much more chaotic than anything you could picture on a movie screen. The old-style Trek battles, while not without merits, felt more like wargames than reality.

[anh165]

The First contact battle was as dull as dish water. Zero tension, zero drama, zero sense of danger.

The only reason anyone would prefer bland battle sequence like that is because it's got their favourite ship featured in it.

[Sky]

Infern0 wrote:

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I like the Abrams trek just fine but I don't subscribe to the same level of worship that a lot do on here namely "The Abrams way is the right way"

No no, the only way. They'd rather have a "brain haemorhage" than be sujected to anything else.

(I find this level of fanboyism highly entertaining. )

What I missed in ST09's battle scenes (perhaps excepting the very first one, with the Kelvin) was the sense of scale. Somehow, the ships' manoeuvring brought to mind small and nimble fighter vessels, not huge majestic starships.

[The Stig]

I think what we got in Trek 09 will continue, and that's a good thing. That first ten minutes grabbed the viewer by the lapels and never let go. That harrowing moment where the crewmember is sucked into the noiseless vacuum as the chaos of battle happened all around her was simply stunning. Nothing before in Trek even came close to that kind of visceral impact.

Of course, I'm also a strong proponent of the firefly/BSG style 'doco' combat footage. It just has an immediacy and impact that the more staid 'fixed camera angle' stuff of FC never accomplished.

[SeerSGB]

Traditional by what definition? DS9 Trek battles were moving into the realm of Star Warsish style space battles; even down to doing a "trench run" with the Defiant on a Cardassian outpost and a Klingon warship and the Valiant and Dominion warship. Trek's space battles will always be a function of budget.

While ST II (IMO) is the best in the franchise, it has nothing to do with the FX but all to do with what's happening between Kirk and Khan. You can have the same tension and drama with a bigger budget battle. For example: I had no problem with the opening battle in ST ('09) and could tell pretty well what was going on FX wise, but I was more vested in what was going on with George Kirk and his crew than I was the FX; it was a fast pace, chaotic event, and the FX just reflected that mad pace of what was going on.

[Oso Blanco]

Infern0 wrote:

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I PREFER the older style trek battles, where the camera is zoomed out a little more so you can see the whole ships, its slower paced so you can tell what's happening, where are the weapons hitting, what damage is being done etc.

My thoughts exactly. For most of the time, you can't really see what's going on in Star Trek XI because it's too zoomed-in, too shaky and too fast.

anh165 wrote:

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The First contact battle was as dull as dish water. Zero tension, zero drama, zero sense of danger.

Funny, I thought that the First Contact battle was the best ever shown in a Star Trek movie. I can watch it in a loop for hours!

[SeerSGB]

Oso Blanco wrote:

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My thoughts exactly. For most of the time, you can't really see what's going on in Star Trek XI because it's too zoomed-in, too shaky and too fast.

Funny, I thought that the First Contact battle was the best ever shown in a Star Trek movie. I can watch it in a loop for hours!

I riff on the FC battle 3/4 of the times I watch it. "Jean Luc use the force" was my immediate thought the first time I watched it in theaters. The whole thing struck me as very A New Hope in what was going on

[anh165]

Oso Blanco wrote:

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Funny, I thought that the First Contact battle was the best ever shown in a Star Trek movie. I can watch it in a loop for hours!

In my opinion, that FC battle was a cheese fest of the highest order and just an exhibition of mid 90's DS9 and TNG viewers favourite ships whizzing around using stock TV sound effects.

Then add cheesy lines like "prepare for ramming speed", and "trust me mr data (aim for that weak spot that our near invincible all conquering foes for an unexplained reason can cause immediate destruction)

The net result is that there was absolute no sense of drama or danger, no one felt really threatened on screen. Watching it again 16 years on the scene looks even more jaded.

[Infern0]

SeerSGB wrote:

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I riff on the FC battle 3/4 of the times I watch it. "Jean Luc use the force" was my immediate thought the first time I watched it in theaters. The whole thing struck me as very A New Hope in what was going on

If you take that out of it, all I mean was it was easy to follow and visually appealing at the same time (granted the film is "old" now) but the effects still add up.

ST09 by contrast its like "FIRE EVERYTHING ARGGHHHHHHH BOOM CRASH POW ARGHHHHHHH"

that's the feeling I got watching it, maybe it was "visceral" or whatever you want to say, you can do that, you can mix in those scenes like that, hell add in some gore effects if you like when parts of the ship come apart, but at the same time let me see what's happening

"LET ME SEE WHATS HAPPENING"

Don't muddle it up in one big, loud, colourful explosion

no more of this:

http://www.davidbarrkirtley.com/imag...2009screen.jpg

[Image converted to link. Images posted inline must be hosted on your own web space. - M']

What even is that?

[anh165]

The Stig wrote:

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I think what we got in Trek 09 will continue, and that's a good thing. That first ten minutes grabbed the viewer by the lapels and never let go. That harrowing moment where the crewmember is sucked into the noiseless vacuum as the chaos of battle happened all around her was simply stunning. Nothing before in Trek even came close to that kind of visceral impact.

F**king-A!

That's what space is, a horrible nasty place to be.

Watching TNG style space battles, it is clear the directors/producers and VFX specialists all were inspired by watching pet fish pottering around in a tank.

[Infern0]

It actually reminds me of this

http://mattsmoviethoughts.files.word...9/movie_bg.jpg

as opposed to this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iBuNz7Kv1j.../StarWars1.jpg

[Images converted to links. Images posted inline must be hosted on your own web space. - M']

yeah one was "less visceral" and had a lot less going on, but there was emotion in it and it's a better battle imo because it's not just throwing crap all over the place, it's two guys dueling, simple.

Ship battles can work the same, you can up the effects, you can have people dying or whatever you need to do, just pan the camera OUT a little and let me see what's going on that's all

Meet in the middle, that's all i'm saying.