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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 30 2013, 10:50 PM   #586
Ghouleddie74
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

Don't get me started on burgers. The last thing you need is another one of my patented commercials for Red Robin's Whiskey River BBQ Burger.
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Old January 30 2013, 10:56 PM   #587
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

All this talk of the souls and such of Trek and SW just made me wonder if in the case of directing SW, could Abrams actually rape his own childhood?
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Old January 30 2013, 10:57 PM   #588
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

Ovation wrote: View Post
Exactly my point.
I am glad to find that we are in agreement.


Ovation wrote: View Post
Nope. They still owe us nothing.
It's a hypothetical imperative. If you want "X," you should do "Y." In our case, the hypothetical is economic: If you wish to make money with a film franchise, then you should be attentive to tastes of your audience.

If they wish to make money (trust me, they do), then they should be attentive to the tastes of their audience. If they wish to make money, they owe us something attuned to our tastes, so that the bills will flow freely from our pockets.


Ovation wrote: View Post
we are not owed satisfaction.
If they wish to make money (past opening day), we are owed satisfaction.

Ovation wrote: View Post
Well, if you're going to parse technicalities to this degree in a causal discussion board, ok. They are beholden to their shareholders. Technically, as long as they convince the shareholders that a profit will be made, in some fashion or another, even with a release date of 2065, then they are free to do so. Of course, you knew perfectly well that I meant the "when they damn well please" in relation to the general public. I forgot I was responding to the kind of pedant who looks for technical exceptions to make tangential points in order to avoid conceding the larger, more obvious point. Won't happen again.
We should note that the "economic" and "property" defenses of these franchises we find on these boards assert a creative, even arbitrary license enjoyed by the studio.

Hence we find statements like,

"Their only job is to make money. They have no responsibility to please hard core fans."

"They own it. They paid for it. They can do whatever they wish!"


I have participated in making statements like these myself, but we should note that these comments have limits. More importantly we should note that the warrants of economy and property implicate us in discussions of both.

If we are to deprecate artistic/thematic concerns in light of the ruthless demands of business, then it is only sensible to consider not only what demands studios make of films, but what demands stakeholders make of studios. If we are to play the economic Darwinism card, then we will find that it is Darwinism all the way down, and that even our puffed up studio chiefs are themselves just scrambling for a piece of the action in the great circle of life (if you can excuse a Disney reference and Trek reference in the same sentence).

In short, this is not mere pedantry, but a natural implication of swimming into these waters.

Ovation wrote: View Post
I'd say they're quite skilled at doing so, given the very high degree of happiness they have, collectively, engendered among the public (measured by the only criterion that matters--the number of people who paid to see the work).

In that case, their fates seem rather promising, given the evidence available. But they remain free to offer what they want, when they want (subject, of course, to shareholder approval--don't want to forget the technicalities).
You're still not quite grasping the economic imperative. The shareholder is only one aspect of this relationship. To the extent that the simply wish to succeed, they must respect the tastes of their audience.

Ovation wrote: View Post
Certainly. People are free to talk all they like--whether they like Abrams' work, hate it or are unmoved by it. Never have I said otherwise. However, I will continue to say, as I am entirely correct in the matter, that no artistic producer (in the broadest sense, encompassing all manner of formats) owes anything in particular to the audience prior to receiving compensation of some sort and, subsequent to that compensation, owes ONLY an artistic product. NEVER does such a producer owe anyone whatsoever any form of satisfaction.
Well, if we are speaking of "artists," then we are speaking of individuals who may not wish to profit and who are not beholden to make profits for anyone else. Artists may simply wish make art for art's sake and have no (or a very limited) desire to even exhibit their artwork.

Producers and studios, however, are not artists, but people seek profit through entertainment. And those who promise entertainment in exchange for payment (e.g., musicians, jugglers, singers, hypnotists, magicians, popular writers) are indeed obligated to deliver what they promise. Should they fail to meet that obligation, their mandate of profit will not be met. Pure and simple.
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Old January 30 2013, 10:59 PM   #589
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

tl;dr
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Old January 30 2013, 11:00 PM   #590
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

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Old January 30 2013, 11:09 PM   #591
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Disturbing.
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Old January 30 2013, 11:17 PM   #592
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

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Old January 30 2013, 11:17 PM   #593
Greg Cox
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
You go in knowing what to expect, and when it's done right, you're satisfied. And, a well-made cheeseburger is harder to find than one would think it should be, too.
Who doesn't love cheeseburgers?

There's an independent place two blocks from my front door, Stage Burger, that has the best cheeseburgers around. It's hard to find a place in this part of the country that offers sliced avocado - as distinct from guacamole, which a lot of places do.

Cheeburger, Cheeburger isn't bad, either, but they're more notable for their "frings" baskets.

I'm more of a hamburger guy myself. Dairy and I don't get along.

Five Guys is dangerously good. It's probably just as well the nearest outlet is about an hour away.
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Old January 30 2013, 11:29 PM   #594
YARN
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
tl;dr
ts;dc
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Old January 30 2013, 11:31 PM   #595
Ovation
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

YARN wrote: View Post

You're still not quite grasping the economic imperative. The shareholder is only one aspect of this relationship. To the extent that the simply wish to succeed, they must respect the tastes of their audience.
I understand the economic imperative just fine, thanks. And while "respect[ing] the tastes of their audience" is certainly helpful for success, it is not strictly required that they do so. They can choose to try something new and hope it works out.

That said, it is overwhelmingly clear that Abrams has "respect[ed] the taste of [his] audience". That he has not respected the tastes of a small minority of the audience does not obviate his overall success. And that's because he doesn't OWE any particular member of the audience anything other than a product to experience. And that remains the ONLY thing he, or any other producer of entertainment, owes the audience (and only for some form of compensation).


And those who promise entertainment in exchange for payment (e.g., musicians, jugglers, singers, hypnotists, magicians, popular writers) are indeed obligated to deliver what they promise. Should they fail to meet that obligation, their mandate of profit will not be met. Pure and simple.
As long as they provide an entertainment product, in exchange for compensation, they owe the audience nothing else. Certainly not individual satisfaction. They hope they provide satisfaction--they are not obligated in any way to ensure it. That is true whether it's a busker in the metro station or the next installment of Superman on the big screen.

No matter how fanatical one might be about a particular form of entertainment, "satisfaction is NOT guaranteed".
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Old January 30 2013, 11:54 PM   #596
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

YARN wrote: View Post
Should they fail to meet that obligation, their mandate of profit will not be met. Pure and simple.
So then we all agree that Abrams met that mandate?

This isn't something nebulous like TV ratings, where we can argue about things like the effect time-shifting and downloading shows can affect ratings.

Paramount spent 'A' amount of dollars on the project, and earned 'X' from ticket sales, 'Y' from home video and 'Z' from broadcast/cable rights. If 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' are far greater than 'A', then Abrams satisfied his employers and seemingly the public that bought the product.

We can argue the artistic merit til the end of time, that is going to mean something different to each individual, but the economic argument that Abrams didn't do his job simply doesn't exist.
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Old January 31 2013, 12:18 AM   #597
Ovation
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

And he didn't even have to consult "the audience" ahead of time to do it. Imagine.
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Old January 31 2013, 12:34 AM   #598
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

Set Harth wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
You Abrams lickers
Talking to yourself?
I said "no licking". Now behave.

YARN wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
tl;dr
ts;dc
Warning for flaming. Comments to PM.
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Old January 31 2013, 12:50 AM   #599
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

Come on guys.

Star Trek TOS: 1966
Star Trek TNG: 1987 (Delta = 21)
Star Trek XI: 2009 (Delta = 22)

I prefer the TNG era Treks to the new films, but why shouldn't Trek be re-thought for a modern audience?

There's just no reason to be so protective over franchises. I was pissed when Lucas tried to erase his original cuts from history, but as long as I still have the originals available for me I don't care about whatever other new installments come out.

Out of all the people who could have possibly been asked to make a new Star Wars or Star Trek film, the only two people who could have not completely butchered it are Abrams and Wheadon.

I look forward to seeing the next completely re-imagined version of Star Trek in 2031.
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Old January 31 2013, 12:58 AM   #600
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Abrams Directing Star Wars

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I prefer the TNG era Treks to the new films, but why shouldn't Trek be re-thought for a modern audience?
That's just crazy talk!
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