Why Khan?

[WarpFactorZ]

It seems like the speculation that the villain in STID is Khan has been going on since before the movie was even planned. I have one question for those of you who still support this theory: WHY SHOULD IT BE HIM?

What drove the drama in TWOK was the PERSONAL agenda Khan had against Kirk, an urge for vengeance that festered for 15 years on Ceti Alpha V after seeing his crew and loved ones destroyed.

At this point in the timeline, whether original or reboot, Khan HAS NO BEEF with Kirk. If Khan is the enemy, he'll be no more original than Nero: bland villain #230975 who wants to destroy the Federation... which according to Abrams seemed to be entirely localized on the Earth, including every starship in service (if they're not in the Laurentian system, that is).

If Khan is introduced in this capacity, it'll be lame. But personally, I don't think this is going to happen.

[CorporalClegg]

Why does he need a "beef" with Kirk?

What drove Khan in TWOK was Montalban acting chops. All that nonsense you spouted was just something extrapolated from the off-screen ethos that Meyer threw in there to provide some evidence of a plot. Really, Khan of TWOK could have just have easily been "bland villain #230975." All the stuff that made him interesting as a villain and work as a formidable advisory was left back in "Space Seed."

The Khan of TWOK was neither physically superior nor intelligent. Those are ingredients that can work in any capacity, and if Bad Robot plans on using them, they may as well use ones that are familiar.

[HaventGotALife]

WarpFactorZ wrote:

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It seems like the speculation that the villain in STID is Khan has been going on since before the movie was even planned. I have one question for those of you who still support this theory: WHY SHOULD IT BE HIM?

What drove the drama in TWOK was the PERSONAL agenda Khan had against Kirk, an urge for vengeance that festered for 15 years on Ceti Alpha V after seeing his crew and loved ones destroyed.

At this point in the timeline, whether original or reboot, Khan HAS NO BEEF with Kirk. If Khan is the enemy, he'll be no more original than Nero: bland villain #230975 who wants to destroy the Federation... which according to Abrams seemed to be entirely localized on the Earth, including every starship in service (if they're not in the Laurentian system, that is).

If Khan is introduced in this capacity, it'll be lame. But personally, I don't think this is going to happen.

We don't know how old these characters are supposed to be. They could've skipped introducing Khan, played out that history off-screen, and have him a part of a plot, not the centerpiece of the story. If my instinct is right and this is going to be about Captain Kirk's mistakes, it could be a culmination of several missions that come back to bite him.

[WarpFactorZ]

CorporalClegg wrote:

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Why does he need a "beef" with Kirk?

Because that's what defined Khan's *wrath* in The WRATH of Khan!

What drove Khan in TWOK was Montalban acting chops. All that nonsense you spouted was just something extrapolated from the off-screen ethos that Meyer threw in there to provide some evidence of a plot.

Off-screen ethos? Have you seen the movie? Did you miss Khan's background explanation of why they weren't on Ceti Alpha VI? The Ceti Eels, his crew, his beloved wife? That was hardly off-screen.

Really, Khan of TWOK could have just have easily been "bland villain #230975." All the stuff that made him interesting as a villain and work as a formidable advisory was left back in "Space Seed." The Khan of TWOK was neither physically superior nor intelligent. Those are ingredients that can work in any capacity, and if Bad Robot plans on using them, they may as well use ones that are familiar.

I disagree. Khan's superhuman abilities were highlighted, but aside from his intellect and learning curve, there's not a lot he can do with them on a starship. They did overpower the entire crew of Regula One, though, and he does some pretty heavy power-lifting on the Reliant. Also, there's that thing about surviving 15 years in a completely hostile environment...

Anyway, despite these super advantages, it was his *human* ego that was his downfall. THAT's the point of TWOK, and THAT's what made Khan a complex villain.

In Space Seed, aside from throwing people against a wall and locking Kirk in a barometric chamber, how did he display his superior intellect?

[WarpFactorZ]

HaventGotALife wrote:

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We don't know how old these characters are supposed to be.

This movie is supposed to take place about 6 months after the last one.

They could've skipped introducing Khan, played out that history off-screen, and have him a part of a plot, not the centerpiece of the story. If my instinct is right and this is going to be about Captain Kirk's mistakes, it could be a culmination of several missions that come back to bite him.

I suppose they could throw out a line saying something like "Hey, Jim, remember that 20th century sleeper ship we found two months ago and handed over to Starfleet instead of thawing them out ourselves? You'll never *guess* what's happened since!..." But that would be lame and contrived.

I agree with your last point about Kirk's "mistakes," but I would be disappointed if Khan somehow figured into them at this point.

[Lance]

I don't think it will be Khan. But this...

HaventGotALife wrote:

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If my instinct is right and this is going to be about Captain Kirk's mistakes, it could be a culmination of several missions that come back to bite him.

... is something I really like the sound of. The implication of lots of missions between ST09 and this, possibly even getting to see some of those missions, and the culmination of that building to John Harrison, the villain, taking on the Federation.

[Therin of Andor]

WarpFactorZ wrote:

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It seems like the speculation that the villain in STID is Khan has been going on since before the movie was even planned. I have one question for those of you who still support this theory: WHY SHOULD IT BE HIM?

Because the writers realised that their next script was "Star Trek 2" - and they'd already joked that, in this new timeline, they could encounter old foes and we'd see events play out differently.

If someone does/did encounter Khan's sleeper ship, at some time after Nero's arrival, anything could have happened... with a result totally different to "Space Seed".

What drove the drama in TWOK was the PERSONAL agenda Khan had against Kirk, an urge for vengeance that festered for 15 years on Ceti Alpha V after seeing his crew and loved ones destroyed.

And irrelevant in this new timeline. The drama will be different, the agendas will be different.

But Khan - and Klingons - are certainly Star Trek antagonists with a very high public profile. Free publicity!

Lance wrote:

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... is something I really like the sound of. The implication of lots of missions between ST09 and this, possibly even getting to see some of those missions...

Which is what they've been doing in the IDW comic. People complaining to Pike that Kirk needed reigning in. Now, only about 2% of the audience has read those comics, but the movie will no doubt show us more evidence. The scenes in the red forest may be another incident.

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Why does anyone assume a movie with Khan as the villain has anything to do with TWOK?

Tim Burton made a Batman movie featuring the Joker. Big success. Many years later Nolan made another. What did the movies have in common? Not much.

Khan is by far the best-known antagonist in Star Trek to the general audience. That is reason enough to use him. That said, TWOK was far from the most interesting story that can be constructed around such a character.

[Ovation]

I guess it would depend if the current production team is looking at their movies as a closed trilogy (like the Nolan Batman movies) or as the beginning of an open-ended set of movies (like, say, the Mission Impossible movies). If the former, I think using the second film to set up Khan for the finale would be a more interesting way to go (but that's just one viewer's opinion). If the latter, then there is no unassailable reason not to go with Khan (though there is no unassailable reason not to, either).

Of course, the "logic" of tying Khan in this setting to TWOK is rather absurd, as it is no more viable than arguing ST09 should and must have been about V'ger.

[chardman]

WarpFactorZ wrote:

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At this point in the timeline, whether original or reboot, Khan HAS NO BEEF with Kirk.

So? He didn't "have a beef with Kirk" in "Space Seed" either, yet that didn't at all hamper his ability to be a really great villain, now did it? Despite having no "beef" with Kirk, Khan was such a compelling villain that years later they opted to revisit his character with a big budget movie.

[CorporalClegg]

WarpFactorZ wrote:

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Because that's what defined Khan's *wrath* in The WRATH of Khan!

They're not remaking The Wrath of Khan.

Off-screen ethos? Have you seen the movie? Did you miss Khan's background explanation of why they weren't on Ceti Alpha VI? The Ceti Eels, his crew, his beloved wife? That was hardly off-screen.

You mean a planet exploded and his wife died on screen? You're right. I guess I haven't seen it.

Khan's superhuman abilities were highlighted, but aside from his intellect and learning curve, there's not a lot he can do with them on a starship.

You mean aside from understanding "The infinite extension of the three-dimensional region in which all matter exists," has three-dimensions?

They did overpower the entire crew of Regula One,

How do you know? Did you see it? Terrell said Khan did, but Terrell also had a magic space slug in his ear. For all you know, he was lying.

though, and he does some pretty heavy power-lifting on the Reliant.

He lifted nothing that a "normal" fit human couldn't lift under an adrenalin rush--unlike Cumby, who've already seen swing a significantly larger object around like a whiffle bat.

Also, there's that thing about surviving 15 years in a completely hostile environment...

By "hostile" you mean "without food or water." Once again, there were no on-screen indications he had access to either (Magic space slugs don't seem to fill many dietary needs.), so we can only assume he didn't. As he so astutely point out, he and his friends were still human. Surviving under such conditions isn't a matter of genetic superiority, but rather movie magic.

Anyway, despite these super advantages, it was his *human* ego that was his downfall. THAT's the point of TWOK, and THAT's what made Khan a complex villain.

No. It's what made him a trite, one-dimensional villain. Take Montys performance out of it, and he's no different than half the bad-guys in any other SF&F film, or, you know, Nero. The difference is Nero wasn't essential to the plot. He was just the means to the end.

In Space Seed, aside from throwing people against a wall and locking Kirk in a barometric chamber, how did he display his superior intellect?

He didn't really, aside from we actually SEE him craft a plan and execute it.

Really, though, the fact is the character has never been used to the fullest of his potential. That's why the redo.

[HaventGotALife]

My Name Is Legion wrote:

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Why does anyone assume a movie with Khan as the villain has anything to do with TWOK?

Tim Burton made a Batman movie featuring the Joker. Big success. Many years later Nolan made another. What did the movies have in common? Not much.

Khan is by far the best-known antagonist in Star Trek to the general audience. That is reason enough to use him. That said, TWOK was far from the most interesting story that can be constructed around such a character.

Khan is safe and free of thought. No one would accept a Batman series of movies without "the Joker." The same cannot be said for Star Trek and Khan. The only way I would hate them doing Khan is if they try to recapture the magic of Khan by ripping off Khan the way that Nemesis, Nero in 2009, etc. He set the tone for the rest of the movies, which sucks. You can't talk to a space blob, a piece of CGI, but it makes it more interesting to me because it's "strange, new life," and it usually can't be reasoned with. It's about the characters proving their mettle, using their brains, with their brawn. How would McCoy approach this problem? It says something about the character, their position on the ship. Instead, in '09, they split up the natural conclusions between the characters when they are postulating who Nero is and what he wants.

[Greg Cox]

My Name Is Legion wrote:

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Tim Burton made a Batman movie featuring the Joker. Big success. Many years later Nolan made another. What did the movies have in common? Not much.

What, no love for Cesar Romero in the even earlier movie?

[Admiral Buzzkill]

HaventGotALife wrote:

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Khan is safe and free of thought.

Why, because you say so? You're mistaken.

No one would accept a Batman series of movies without "the Joker."

Says who?

The same cannot be said for Star Trek and Khan.

It doesn't have to be. If the studio and producers think that Khan is the character who will draw the most positive attention and publicity to the movie, that's reason enough to consider him.

It's not like Star Trek has a history replete with awesome antagonists, after all, which is why when they come up with one that works - say, the Borg - they go back to that well over, and over, and over.

Khan's been used in one movie. Klingons have been used in - God, how many? Enough with the Klingons and Romulans and other bumpy-headed caricatures - another advantage that Khan has for the broader audience is that he is a human being, from Earth, who because he is a man nearly of our own era is relatable and whose back story can be made to encompass all kinds of contemporary issues and angst.

All Klingons can do is wave pointy objects and chant gutturally about honor and death. Apparently.

[Set Harth]

CorporalClegg wrote:

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unlike Cumby, who've already seen swing a significantly larger object around like a whiffle bat.

You mean a gun, something presumably meant to be held and fired?