RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,382
Posts: 5,357,255
Members: 24,628
Currently online: 551
Newest member: suryaprabu02

TrekToday headlines

The Gene Roddenberry Project Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Jul 30

Moore: No Deep Space Nine Regrets
By: T'Bonz on Jul 30

Pegg Star Wars Rumor
By: T'Bonz on Jul 30

Borg Cube Fridge
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Free Enterprise Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Siddig To Join Game Of Thrones
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Sci-Fried To Release New Album
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek into Darkness Soundtrack
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Horse 1, Shatner 0
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Lounges & General Chat > Miscellaneous

Miscellaneous Discussion of non-Trek topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 27 2013, 03:40 PM   #46
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

I doubt Dolphins can think symbolically like that. Certainly, Chimps can't. They would know that people are helpful, but they wouldn't think they're a deity.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27 2013, 06:18 PM   #47
YellowSubmarine
Commodore
 
YellowSubmarine's Avatar
 
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

I'm not sure. Can you cite some source on that chimp thing?

The ability to use sign language and a language based on pictograms certainly shows the ability to utilise at least some basic abstraction in bonobos, and deities are in my mind one of the simpler forms of abstractions, one step beyond a substitute for anything too complex and difficult to understand.
__________________
R.I.P. Cadet James T. Kirk (-1651)
YellowSubmarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27 2013, 11:23 PM   #48
RJDiogenes
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDiogenes's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

I think the concept of a deity is simply an abstracted form of imprinting on a parental figure. One might say that dogs view their people as deities. I don't think its beyond cetaceans or primates or other intelligent animals to create the idea of a deity (I'm suddenly reminded of a story called "The Pope of the Chimps," but I can't remember who wrote it).
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards!
RJDiogenes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2013, 03:06 AM   #49
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Except that's not true. It's the symbolic thinking - the act of thinking about things abstractly with analogies that is at issue. It's something not known to occur in Chimpanzees.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2013, 10:32 AM   #50
RJDiogenes
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDiogenes's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

We don't really know if they can or not, or if abstract thinking exists in degrees or flavors like intelligence. Chimps can certainly think of a Human as a parental figure; even baby birds will imprint on a Human or another type of animal as a parent. It isn't much of a step to go from that to thinking of all Humans as god-like figures.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards!
RJDiogenes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2013, 01:54 PM   #51
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Since Chimps can communicate through sign language, we're able to get a far greater insight into what they're thinking so it isn't quite accurate to say "we don't know."
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2013, 06:30 PM   #52
Robert Maxwell
Not Your Toy
 
Robert Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: A broken roof
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
We don't really know if they can or not, or if abstract thinking exists in degrees or flavors like intelligence. Chimps can certainly think of a Human as a parental figure; even baby birds will imprint on a Human or another type of animal as a parent. It isn't much of a step to go from that to thinking of all Humans as god-like figures.
The very concept of a "god" is highly abstract. That's the whole point. Even "parent" is an abstract idea. Young animals don't imprint on their parents because they understand the parent/child relationship. They do it because of simple conditioning: "this one feeds me, this one protects me from other animals." Even that is probably too sophisticated a representation of what goes on in the brains of other mammals.
__________________
It's all false love and affection
The Journeyman - Buy it now! Maybe?
My world simulation project!
My blog
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2013, 11:40 PM   #53
RJDiogenes
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDiogenes's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Since Chimps can communicate through sign language, we're able to get a far greater insight into what they're thinking so it isn't quite accurate to say "we don't know."
But we don't know; if we did, we wouldn't be doing the research. In any case, the question is not whether chimps wax philosophical on on perfectibility or original sin, but whether they look at Humans as god-like in their own chimpy way, which they likely do. As for the original question about whether dolphins see us as deities, I would say that they are very likely to be capable of abstract thought, but have enough practical intelligence to understand that we are fellow animals.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The very concept of a "god" is highly abstract. That's the whole point. Even "parent" is an abstract idea. Young animals don't imprint on their parents because they understand the parent/child relationship. They do it because of simple conditioning: "this one feeds me, this one protects me from other animals." Even that is probably too sophisticated a representation of what goes on in the brains of other mammals.
It doesn't need to be sophisticated. Dogs are man's best friend, but that doesn't mean they sit around pontificating on the meaning of friendship-- they just feel loyalty and sympathy and so forth. People feel the same things, but elevate it to the abstract. Mammals are hard-wired with parent and child behaviors, and that can lead to substitute parental figures. A chimp is unlikely to create an abstract deity or anthropomorphize aspects of nature, but people are not abstract concepts. We're visible and present, and we control the lights and the food and the toys and so forth. So I would say that domesticated chimps would very likely look at us as god-like figures.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards!
RJDiogenes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 29 2013, 12:57 AM   #54
Robert Maxwell
Not Your Toy
 
Robert Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: A broken roof
View Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to Robert Maxwell
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The very concept of a "god" is highly abstract. That's the whole point. Even "parent" is an abstract idea. Young animals don't imprint on their parents because they understand the parent/child relationship. They do it because of simple conditioning: "this one feeds me, this one protects me from other animals." Even that is probably too sophisticated a representation of what goes on in the brains of other mammals.
It doesn't need to be sophisticated. Dogs are man's best friend, but that doesn't mean they sit around pontificating on the meaning of friendship-- they just feel loyalty and sympathy and so forth. People feel the same things, but elevate it to the abstract. Mammals are hard-wired with parent and child behaviors, and that can lead to substitute parental figures. A chimp is unlikely to create an abstract deity or anthropomorphize aspects of nature, but people are not abstract concepts. We're visible and present, and we control the lights and the food and the toys and so forth. So I would say that domesticated chimps would very likely look at us as god-like figures.
I don't even know what to say. To so utterly miss the point as you have is almost beyond belief. I will just leave you to it.
__________________
It's all false love and affection
The Journeyman - Buy it now! Maybe?
My world simulation project!
My blog
Robert Maxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29 2013, 10:40 AM   #55
RJDiogenes
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDiogenes's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

^^ All righty then.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards!
RJDiogenes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 2 2013, 11:23 PM   #56
YellowSubmarine
Commodore
 
YellowSubmarine's Avatar
 
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

The amazingness of this might be slightly tangential to the debate about intelligence, but it is fascinating enough so I can't resist posting it.

Dolphins playing with air balloons


Dolphins know how to have fun, don't they? I wish we could do something as cool.

A friendly advice: Don't ever watch dolphin videos, you'd start relating to them way too much.
__________________
R.I.P. Cadet James T. Kirk (-1651)
YellowSubmarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3 2013, 11:15 AM   #57
RJDiogenes
Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion
 
RJDiogenes's Avatar
 
Location: RJDiogenes of Boston
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

^^ That's fantastic. It demonstrates that they are capable of not only fun, but creativity and of educating each other. It reminds me of a Whale Watch I was on where we were told about a local whale who invented a new way to fish-- something about slapping the water to stun them or something-- and then taught all the other whales so that now everyone does it.

Here's another amazing demonstration of cetacean social behavior that somebody on another board posted. It demonstrates not only intelligence, but compassion and charity.
__________________
Please stop by my Gallery and YouTube Page for a visit. And read Trunkards!
RJDiogenes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 3 2013, 08:08 PM   #58
Gary7
Rear Admiral
 
Gary7's Avatar
 
Location: Near Manhattan ··· in an alternate reality
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Dolphins are angels incarnate! They're showing us their halos. Wow... never EVER kill a dolphin. If you do, you're killing an angel.
__________________
Remembering Ensign Mallory.
Gary7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3 2013, 08:49 PM   #59
trekkiedane
Admiral
 
trekkiedane's Avatar
 
Location: I'll let you know when I get there.
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to trekkiedane
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Dolphins are angels incarnate! They're showing us their halos. Wow... never EVER kill a dolphin. If you do, you're killing an angel.
Indeed.

Plus: Always good to meet another member of The Movement.
__________________
I am trekkiedane and I wholeheartedly agree with this post.
trekkiedane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 6 2013, 11:02 PM   #60
Timelord Victorious
TARDIS Janitor
 
Timelord Victorious's Avatar
 
Location: Germany, Earth, the Solar System
Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

In related news, this video shows the largest group of dolphins trying desperately to keep an injured female dolphin alive, that is unable to swim on her own.

Never before have humans witnessed such a strong social behavior among dolphins.

http://videos.t-online.de/delfinrett...61914700/index

Ultimately they failed and the female died.

I want to cry watching this!

(sorry for the video being in German, don't know if there is an English version)
Timelord Victorious is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.