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Old August 28 2013, 10:01 PM   #181
teya
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Get rid of Chakotay's made up Native American tribe would've been a good idea. Not sure if the Christian bit would've been any better, but it couldn't have been any worse.
It would have made sense to make him part of the Native American Church, including the use of peyote.
That's what his electronic thingamabob was for...
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Old August 28 2013, 10:11 PM   #182
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

Well, here's the thing. I don't agree with you that the stories were good. They were derivative of other stories told hundreds of times before. And, according to the writers, they agree with me.




That much is true.



Beltran's character started as a racial stereotype & only got worse. How they were supposed to magically fix it is beyond me. And apparently beyond Beltran, who is on record as saying he wasn't supposed to do what Colm Meaney did to keep O'Brien from turning into a stereotype or what Picardo did to get more to do: give the writers ideas.

Thing is, there are times that you simply have to go above and beyond your job description. Beltran chose to whine & complain & trash other people publically instead of doing that.

Being someone who worked her way up from a blue collar job by taking every opportunity thrown at me and running with it, I don't have a whole lot of respect for that.
I think that most of the stories which featured Kes were very good. As for the writers, why didn't they come up with better stories? They had all the opportunities in the world to0 do that. If an amateur like me can come up with decent Kes stories, then I expect more than that of professional writers.

As for characters with great mental powers and such, we have had Vulcan senior officers, Klingons, green ensigns & whipping boys, funny aliens and characters searching for their humanity before too and no one is complaining about that.

As for Beltran, maybe he tried to make something better out of Chakotay but wasn't allowed to do so?

In my life and where I live I've learned that you have to stand up and fight for your rights, otherwise you'll be trampled underfoot. Bowing and crawling for the authorities won't get you anywhere.

KaraBear wrote:
That's the thing, every actor would meet with producers and discuss what they wanted out of their characters, if there were any changes they thought could be made and such. From what I heard, there are only two actors who never made time to meet and discuss their characters: Beltran, and Lien.
What I've heard, Beltran had a lot of discussions with the producers about what he wanted out of his character but they constantly ignored everything. After years of trying, he lost his temper and spoke out and I admire him for that.

I don't know if or how Lien had any discussions with those in charge about her character. Maybe she was one of this too nice and friendly people who only did what she was ordered to do and look what happened to her!

But when it comes to acting, she really did a great job in portraying Kes. She really gave life to the character.
Lien has said herself she never went to meet with anyone, that doesn't make her too nice, that shows a lack of interest in your job.

I will have to disagree with you about her acting, I think she was not very good. With her you could always see that she was acting, she never BECAME the character like many of the other actors did
When did she say that she didn't want to meet with anyone? I've never seen that comment from her. And how can you judge her and state that she had a lack of interest in her job?

Maybe she realized that there was no idea to debate with those writers. Unfortunately she had to learn the hard way that it's meaningless to be too nice and quiet, one have to fight for ones rights. I wish she had been more like Beltran and Wang in that matter.

As for her acting, I find her a good actress, better than most Star Trek actors. She really gave life to the character Kes.

I think there were plans for her from the beginning, but I think seeing that she wasn't a strong actor maybe they didn't give her as much
Well, if they were that meticulous, then I do wonder why they didn't have the same demands for other actors as well. If that had been the truth, the actress who played T´Pol in Enterprise wouldn't have lasted five episodes.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:11 PM   #183
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote:
That's what his electronic thingamabob was for...
Yeah, I never figured out the point of that gizmo. Apparently it's all right to achieve an altered mental state from an electronic device, but not by puffing some plant in a pipe.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:18 PM   #184
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

In a crunch... He could weaponize it surely?

Alien ground pounders romper stomping door to door suddenly find their conciousness trapped in a hive mind collective they can't get out of.

Tie the bugger into the antigravity and you'd be away laughing.

Here's the thing...

Beltran complained and complained... And then they forced him to make out with Jeri as his final punishment.

It's just acting and not real, the bragging rights for his character is a thousand times more important than his lips touching her lips...

You have to wonder if Beltran wasn't being rewarded for being a dick, but maybe Jeri was being punished for something awful that we don't know about?
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Old August 28 2013, 10:21 PM   #185
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Melakon wrote: View Post
teya wrote:
That's what his electronic thingamabob was for...
Yeah, I never figured out the point of that gizmo. Apparently it's all right to achieve an altered mental state from an electronic device, but not by puffing some plant in a pipe.
Klingons are allowed to commit ritual suicide and murder if it's crouched in religious hokum.

Yes he's allowed actual drugs, if it's forced on him by his religious beliefs.

But Chakotay appears to be a wussy taking the wussy way out.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:26 PM   #186
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Get rid of Chakotay's made up Native American tribe would've been a good idea. Not sure if the Christian bit would've been any better, but it couldn't have been any worse.
It would have made sense to make him part of the Native American Church, including the use of peyote.
That's what his electronic thingamabob was for...
Fake psychedelics for a fake religion. However, making Chakotay part of a religion would give more context and legitimacy to his rituals. Moreover, it could serve as a counterpoint to how Christianity is normally portrayed.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:51 PM   #187
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Christianity didn't survive World War III.

Religion requires parents to brainwash their children.

It's pretty clear by that point, hundreds of million dead, nations burning... #### God.
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Old August 29 2013, 07:24 AM   #188
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

teya wrote: View Post
Beltran's character started as a racial stereotype & only got worse. How they were supposed to magically fix it is beyond me. And apparently beyond Beltran, who is on record as saying he wasn't supposed to do what Colm Meaney did to keep O'Brien from turning into a stereotype or what Picardo did to get more to do: give the writers ideas.

Thing is, there are times that you simply have to go above and beyond your job description. Beltran chose to whine & complain & trash other people publically instead of doing that.

Being someone who worked her way up from a blue collar job by taking every opportunity thrown at me and running with it, I don't have a whole lot of respect for that.
Some great points to be had here:

#1.) Someone else mentioned (though it was too much to quote there) Picardo did a lot of poking and working with the writers and directors to build his character and even lean on his own talents. This really DID make The Doctor come even more alive because it allowed Picardo to add so much more of himself into the character. It was really quite awesome.

#2.) They started playing around with the concept that Chakotay had graduated Star Fleet Academy with a focus in Anthropology, but they always stopped short of directly stating this or even focusing on this. Maybe its because I majored in Social Sciences, but I found the idea of a scientist who's focus was Anthropology aboard a star ship encountering new species every week REALLY POTENTIALLY COOL. They could have played with that in all manor of ways to really draw the character out. We got a really, really, really great taste of this "Distant Origin" (S03E23), in "Blink of an Eye" (S06E12) and finally in "Natural Law" (S06E22). This is something if executed a ton better after "Distant Origin" (which was a really good point when we should have felt like Chakotay could leave his guard down now and start really acting like a scientist), we probably could have seen a lot better use of the character in an almost CSI Alien kind of way. To me, this was a really big missed opportunity.

#3.) There were also some really great threads that lead us to believe Chakotay was actually the one who trained Ro Laren in "Preemptive Strike" (TNG S07E24). Some retcons outright state it was him. This would have been really fun to play around with. If Chakotay was in fact the guy teaching a course in tactical training that 2/3s of the attendees washed out of every year, Chakotay may have been able to put Tuvok through his paces tactically. This is something else they really could have drawn on (though I would suggest Berman & Co. themselves didn't see the connection they accidentally made themselves till it was way too late).

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
Even if Harry had been made the First Officer, he probably still would have been an Ensign.
Did Harry ever do anything to really earn a promotion? Did he ever go above and beyond?
- How about helping invent the first Federation Transwarp?
- How about helping create the most advanced astrophysics sensors in all of Star Fleet (with 7 of 9s help)?
- How about helping finding FriendshipONE ?

Harry did PLENTY to warrant him getting a promotion to full Lt. by the end of the series, if not Lt. Cmdr.
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Old August 29 2013, 08:11 AM   #189
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

So pretty much everyone on Voyager should've been promoted several times because they all helped out on the various things it accomplished? What did -Harry- do? Anyone can play assistant.
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Old August 29 2013, 08:25 AM   #190
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

He collaborated with the Hirogen for an entire month, helping them manipulate and torture the crew?
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Old August 29 2013, 08:34 AM   #191
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
. . . - How about helping invent the first Federation Transwarp?
You mean the same Federation Transwarp that turned Paris and Janeway into salamanders?

Yeah, that definitely deserves a little box on Harry's chair.
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Old August 29 2013, 08:52 AM   #192
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Lighthammer wrote: View Post
. . . - How about helping invent the first Federation Transwarp?
You mean the same Federation Transwarp that turned Paris and Janeway into salamanders?

Yeah, that definitely deserves a little box on Harry's chair.
Breaking transwarp is an accomplishment, even if the affects were undesirable.
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Old August 29 2013, 09:08 AM   #193
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

While stranded in 1996, Harry in command of Voyager because everyone else of command rank was frolicking with all that ancient strange, Harry buzzed Hollywood, and got the ship recorded and broadcasted by the Network News.

The Prime Directive (Earth at the time was a prewarp culture, and don't even get me started about the temporal displacement policy.) was basically ass floss to this kid.

After that Tuvok slept with one eye open when Captain Kim as in charge of the night shift.

Following the letter of the law, Kim was supposed to let the away team die to avoid cultural and temporal contamination of 20th century Earth... Which irronically would have won Harry the pink slip for Voyager if he hadn't been such a simp.
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Old August 29 2013, 09:10 AM   #194
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
Lighthammer wrote: View Post
. . . - How about helping invent the first Federation Transwarp?
You mean the same Federation Transwarp that turned Paris and Janeway into salamanders?

Yeah, that definitely deserves a little box on Harry's chair.
Breaking transwarp is an accomplishment, even if the affects were undesirable.
The Enterprise broke the Transwarp barrier 5 years earlier.
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Old August 29 2013, 09:42 AM   #195
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Re: What happened to Jennifer Lien?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Lighthammer wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post

You mean the same Federation Transwarp that turned Paris and Janeway into salamanders?

Yeah, that definitely deserves a little box on Harry's chair.
Breaking transwarp is an accomplishment, even if the affects were undesirable.
The Enterprise broke the Transwarp barrier 5 years earlier.
Actually, I think that qualifies as more of a catapult; different physics were involved, but more importantly, no member of the federation was directly involved with the intended outcome.

I don't think that qualifies as helping to invent technology that actually crosses the threshold.
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