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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 17 2014, 04:24 PM   #166
AverageWriter
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I'll probably catch a lot of flak for it...

But honestly, if there was one character that DS9 could have existed entirely without, I'm sorry to say it... but it would be, in my humble opinion...

Worf.

He was tolerable, for the most part, in TNG because he represented a thorn of anarchy in the side of the oft-smug, somewhat statuesque group of "perfect" humans. When he got his own share of shows, that one where his racism came to the surface (the one with the Romulans and the Klingons who were living together) showed a side of him that would present itself far too often in the future- at least in DS9.

He was an unnecessary addition in the first place, and the way DS9 portrayed him was as a spoiled, immature somewhat racist character. Shows like "Let He Who Is Without Sin" brought that gratingly to the surface and yet inexplicably the writers kept shoving Worf and Jadzia together.

I found it telling that the extent of his contribution to the society in Children of Time was a small group of caveman-like outsiders who refused to contribute positively in any way until they were pushed to do so.

DS9 did fine without him, and it could have continued to do so. "Perhaps they will have to adjust to me" is just a bad attitude.
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Old February 17 2014, 05:51 PM   #167
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I'm not gonna give you any flak, you're entitled to your opinion. However, I think you will find yourself in the minority with it.

I'm obviously on Worf's side. He is definitely one of my all time favorite Trek characters.
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Old February 17 2014, 07:50 PM   #168
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I love Worf, though he's not my favorite DS9 character. If nothing else, it seems Terry Farrell was able to really bring out some personality in Jadzia when Worf came along. So I'm definitely glad he joined the cast. I also enjoyed his interactions with Sisko. Plus, for me there's something about having Worf that adds a realness to the whole show, although I'm sure that doesn't make sense to everyone. It's a personal thing I can't really explain.
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Old February 17 2014, 07:52 PM   #169
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I think DS9 could have and would have gone along just fine if Worf had never joined the show, but I think Worf was vastly better written and developed on DS9 than he ever was on TNG, so in that respect I'm glad he did join.
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Old February 17 2014, 08:07 PM   #170
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I know we're getting off topic and should get back to judging Ezri, but Dorn does an awesome job transitioning Worf from the Enterprise to DS9 in the episode where he second-guesses Odo and has to accept feeling a little humbled (sorry, research isn't working).

The scene when Odo and Worf discuss allowing guests into their homes supplement this brilliantly.
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Old February 17 2014, 08:32 PM   #171
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

JD5000 wrote: View Post
The scene when Odo and Worf discuss allowing guests into their homes supplement this brilliantly.
Crossfire--great performances from Auberjonois, Visiter, Dorn, and Shimmerman.
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Old February 17 2014, 08:40 PM   #172
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Getting back on topic, I rewatched Prodigal Daughter last night. No, I haven't decided it's brilliant. Considering the evolution of the episode--it was a last minute story that was cobbled together after another story completely fell apart--I find it difficult to blame the actors, including NdB, for how crappy it was. That said, I could only imagine it being worse if we instead got Terry Farrell's sad face and worried face. Although there were a few good Dax episodes, I still feel that they were due to someone else, mostly notably Dorn in seasons 5 and 6, and that Farrell seldom contributed much other than reaction shots. Farrell could not have come close to pulling off an episode dealing with estranged family, especially one this bad.
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Old February 17 2014, 11:27 PM   #173
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

Worf joining Deep Space Nine was a stroke of genius, in my opinion. It was logical he would be there, at least at first. The motif of Deep Space Nine is about oppression. Deciding to bring Worf onto the show did a lot for the Klingons. Without the idea of bringing him, we would've had a clunky way of getting the bad guys (from day one) in the Cardassians, to join forces with the Dominion. The Klingons killed and oppressed the Cardassians right into the Dominion's waiting hands. It is exactly how the Klingons would respond to fear of an attack. Without that foothold in the Alpha Quadrant, it's doubtful Deep Space Nine has a reason to go to war. I mean, look at what they did before we went to war:

-- Destroyed the USS Odyssey
-- Destroyed New Bajor
-- Tried to start a war with the Tzenkethi.
-- Killed 29 people at a Federation Conference on Earth.
-- Tried to start a war between the Klingons and Federation.
-- Tried to get Gowron Assassinated.
-- Took Federation citizens hostage and replaced them with Changelings.

I mean, after all of that, what would it take to start a war? How about a bloodless take-over of the Alpha Quadrant where the Federation is fighting the rest of the territories against the Dominion? War was inevitable, but the Dominion started with the Cardassians, proved themselves worthy as partners, and then got other races to sign a non-aggression pact.

Without the idea to bring Worf on the station, how do we get the war? It would seem cheap and it wouldn't have served the themes of the show.

That's reason 1. The second, was it gave the Klingons a more honorable and complex society in DS9. Before Worf, there was the Klingon restaurant and Blood Oath. After Worf, we had his brother, Martok, his son, the relationship with Jadzia, etc. He improved the quality of the show by making them more than just head-butting buffoons.

Reason 3: I enjoyed watching him turn from a Klingon, insecure as ever ("Do you hear the cry of the warrior?" "A demonstration can be arranged!" Every time a ship uncloaks, how tiring), to a man who embraces his differences, embraces that he is not Klingon or Human, but a mixture of both and he can set his own path. A man at peace that he never was on TNG. On TNG, his big role in the ensemble was to say "Captain, we should attack first, it's too risky to try diplomacy (I'm paraphrasing)." Here, he was in command, he had missions that were imperfect that he went on, and he became a more fully realized individual. They used Worf to make the show better. That's not like the Borg on Voyager where they didn't grow the Borg at all. It wasn't Q on Voyager where he just says "Kathy!" and not "Jean-Luc!"

They actually used him to make the show better. I can't imagine DS9 without him.
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Old February 18 2014, 12:39 AM   #174
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

I enjoyed Worf in DS9. When was he racist against groups other than Romulans?

I also disagree with the criticism of the Children of Time Klingons. They didn't contribute nothing, they provided a lot of people direction and meaning. And they provided for themselves so they weren't using any of the main group's resources either.

But what I like best about the way they used Worf in DS9 is the way they contrasted Worf's version of honor with the reality of the Klingon Empire, showing that nobody really lived up to the standards he had always taken pride in.

I agree there are some episodes that made him appear childish, like Sword of Kahless and Hippocratic Oath, and those episodes I could do without.
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Old February 18 2014, 03:15 AM   #175
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

JD5000 wrote: View Post
I'm not gonna give you any flak, you're entitled to your opinion. However, I think you will find yourself in the minority with it.

I'm obviously on Worf's side. He is definitely one of my all time favorite Trek characters.
Perhaps.

But I'm not simply going to condede to majority opinion.

I've been watching Trek since I was six, and when it comes to Worf, the character expansion we got, contrary to what has been said here, has been (for the most part) in the final seasons of Next Generation.

Yes, TNG's early seasons in many cases put Worf as the character giving one-liners. But at the same time, TNG's middle to later season also gave his character good episodes and expansion. We saw him express a wide range of emotions and find himself in numerous situations, from how he reacts to his parents to his fatherhood. Worf in a cowboy hat may have been extremely silly, but it showed that he was willing to let his guard down, so to speak, for the sake of his son.

We got his love of Opera in TNG. We got his lineage and yes- his racism (mostly focused towards Romulans) in "Birthright". Not to mention Alexander, though the use of the Alexander character was a bit disappointing in TNG.

TNG took the Worf character and, in the later seasons, did give Dorn some meat to work with, so to speak. One of my favorite TNG episodes, in fact, is a Worf ep- "Parallels".

I have heard people mention expansion of Worf's character in DS9- but what examples did we get? We got him playing off strong characters like Robert O'Reilly, and we got him acting like a spoiled child in multiple episodes. Need I remind anyone about "Let He Who Is Without Sin"? And of course his behavior in "Bar Association".

And yes, his casual racism continued in DS9, along with new abuse of station longterm regulars. He assaulted my second-favorite character, Morn, by flinging him off a barstool just "because"- something that would have serious legal consequences for anyone... except Worf, apparently.

And don't even get me started on his behavior towards Quark. Quark was a multifaceted individual who DID do selfless things from time to time- probably my favorite character on the show. He risked his life on many occasions, and despite being a simple bartender was important. And yet half of Worf's time on DS9 he doesn't even use his name! His continued behavior of referring to him as "That Ferengi" is insulting and immature. He even outright states how much Ferengi disgust him it in "Looking For Par Mach In All The Wrong Places".

This is why I don't like Worf in DS9. I hope I have been explicit and detailed enough so people understand I'm not coming off without a foundation. I've included episode references that are used as the basis of my opinion.

I understand that people "love" Worf, but in so many episodes I see a him portrayed as child, a racist, a small minded creature who received little, if any, positive expansion on DS9.

"Let He Who Is Without Sin" cemented DS9 Worf in my viewpoint. I think, without that show, perhaps I might -might- have been able to see things differently, but that show exists...

Last edited by AverageWriter; February 18 2014 at 03:28 AM.
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Old February 18 2014, 03:52 AM   #176
RCAM
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

AverageWriter wrote: View Post
I'll probably catch a lot of flak for it...

But honestly, if there was one character that DS9 could have existed entirely without, I'm sorry to say it... but it would be, in my humble opinion...

Worf.

He was tolerable, for the most part, in TNG because he represented a thorn of anarchy in the side of the oft-smug, somewhat statuesque group of "perfect" humans. When he got his own share of shows, that one where his racism came to the surface (the one with the Romulans and the Klingons who were living together) showed a side of him that would present itself far too often in the future- at least in DS9.

He was an unnecessary addition in the first place, and the way DS9 portrayed him was as a spoiled, immature somewhat racist character. Shows like "Let He Who Is Without Sin" brought that gratingly to the surface and yet inexplicably the writers kept shoving Worf and Jadzia together.

I found it telling that the extent of his contribution to the society in Children of Time was a small group of caveman-like outsiders who refused to contribute positively in any way until they were pushed to do so.

DS9 did fine without him, and it could have continued to do so. "Perhaps they will have to adjust to me" is just a bad attitude.
Agreed. There was NO need to add Worf to the DS9 cast, and he was incredibly unsympathetic to me. He worked fine on TNG (though I seldom liked a "Worf episode" -- the one point we seem to disagree on slightly), but was shoehorned into DS9 just to provide, in Paramount's eyes, star power.

I found a lot of the Jadzia/Worf romance almost unwatchable.
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Old February 18 2014, 04:06 AM   #177
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

RCAM wrote:
I found a lot of the Jadzia/Worf romance almost unwatchable.
(Gentle nudge back on topic)

And Ezri/Worf was a little more bearable? Talk about making an awkward situation worse.

Worf brought the Klingon side of the Dumbinion War to us, the viewer. It's possible that another Klingon character could have set the same stage, but a familiar character made it easier for us, the armchair quarterbacks, to accept. It would have taken several awkward Ezri-esque epiodes to introduce a new central Klingon character, and the only difference would be that we'd be bitching about that instead.
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Old February 18 2014, 04:16 AM   #178
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

JD5000 wrote: View Post
And Ezri/Worf was a little more bearable? Talk about making an awkward situation worse.
Their relationship was at least interesting, yeah. Though Worf's behavior was immature and furthered my disdain for him (e.g. trying to threaten Bashir... even if Bashir was unfazed by his antics).
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Old February 18 2014, 04:24 AM   #179
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

AverageWriter wrote: View Post
JD5000 wrote: View Post
I'm not gonna give you any flak, you're entitled to your opinion. However, I think you will find yourself in the minority with it.

I'm obviously on Worf's side. He is definitely one of my all time favorite Trek characters.
Perhaps.

But I'm not simply going to concede to majority opinion.
And no one is trying to change your opinion, just express theirs.

AverageWriter wrote: View Post
I've been watching Trek since I was six, and when it comes to Worf, the character expansion we got, contrary to what has been said here, has been (for the most part) in the final seasons of Next Generation.
I would disagree with that. His relationship with Alexander was defined in episodes like "Firstborn," but Worf still was uncomfortable in his own skin. Remember back to "Redemption, Part II," Lursa a B'Etor talking about how he "is not like his brother." That's Worf's character. He still forces Alexander to go through the process of becoming "a warrior," despite K'Ehleyr's wishes. It isn't until Alexander from the future almost kills himself as a boy, that we are treated to Worf backing down.

In "A Fistful of Datas," he was grumpy the entire time. "Why do I have to do this?"

He was on the side of Nora Satie in the "Drumhead" because he was simply security on the ship. He was a buffoon that jumped at the chance for violence. His attitude towards Q, for instance.

On Deep Space Nine, Worf really is lost. The Enterprise-D is destroyed. He is robbed of his house. His brother is off somewhere with a wiped memory. He's not able to find a place in the universe that fits him.

He has found a home with the clerics and thought he would continue his studies there. But the war with the Cardassians robbed him of that opportunity. He doesn't want to stay in Starfleet, he doesn't want to deal with life outside of the Enterprise. He is searching for fulfillment.

Over the course of the series, we see him find that home. Worf finds friends on Deep Space Nine, he has a wife in Jadzia, a new house and power with the Martok family, and even when he loses Jadzia, he is not as lost as he was when he first came on the show. By the time that he has to confront Gowron, he is strong enough in his conviction that he is a capable enough Klingon to challenge the leader of the High Council for his seat. Worf is very loyal. Picard, Sisko, etc. For him to challenge authority is controversial.

Deep Space Nine is not a controlled environment. On board the Enterprise, as Worf states, we see him around like-minded people, uniformed people with regulations. Worf is not very accepting on board the Enterprise. Look at his attitude to different cultures that come on-board, to Lwaxana Troi and her time with his son, etc. The episodes you talk about are about Worf's growth and getting accustomed to life on the station. Some of the finest moments was him overstepping his bounds, and then learning the life lesson.

For instance, in Hippocratic Oath, he takes discretionary time and spies on Quark, thinking Odo will not do his job. Sisko has to call him in for a lecture and tells him there are "unofficial rules" on the station. He is a window into how Starfleet would react to a place that doesn't hold with its ideals.

In "Bar Association," he has his quarters robbed. Not a thing that would happen on the Enterprise. Is that what you are talking about? And it led to one of my favorite scenes, Odo confronting Worf with a list of incidents where Security was breached on the Enterprise.

In Sons of Mogh he questioned whether or not Starfleet was enough for him now. He's been dishonored for acting on his conscience. He no long is convinced that he is a capable warrior. He questions himself in a way he never did in TNG.

Then there's Rules of Engagement where he has to admit that he wanted them to run the convoy and he craved the battle. Again, someone questions Worf if he is a warrior or a human. He hits him because Worf asks himself that question every day. When Gowron does the same thing, he doesn't back down. He doesn't get mad and angry, he very quietly becomes the leader of the High Council (and cedes power to Martok).

He gains Martok's respect in By Inferno's Light. Jadzia softens him in a lot of ways. She gives him a home, a character like him--steeped in Klingon tradition and wearing a Starfleet uniform. Their relationship is my favorite romance on the show. When he loses her, he isn't destroyed by it. Despite the fact he sacrificed his career for her (Change of Heart), he honored her memory and moved on. He didn't mope (not act like a child, mope) like he did when he first came on the station.
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Old February 18 2014, 05:03 AM   #180
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Re: Absolute worst character in DS9 History: Ezri Dax

AverageWriter wrote:
I'm not simply going to condede to majority opinion.
NEVER concede!
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