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Old January 25 2013, 02:44 AM   #46
Guy Gardener
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

You do understand that although Susannah (and the writers) thought she was playing a new queen, which is a fair enough assumption since the movie Queen ran away back in time leaving a vacuum or created a new timeline which could have changed Borg history radically enough to have a new Queen, which could have been the truth in season 6, there's that the writers of Endgame in season 7 are purported to think that Alice's Queen in Endgame was the same Queen that Janeway had been butting heads with even if Alice's TV Queen wasn't the same Queen Alice's Movie Queen which keeps in line with the season 6 writers rooms beliefs above board.

Your prooving things in the wrong direction.
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Old January 25 2013, 05:23 AM   #47
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You do understand that although Susannah (and the writers) thought she was playing a new queen, which is a fair enough assumption since the movie Queen ran away back in time leaving a vacuum or created a new timeline which could have changed Borg history radically enough to have a new Queen, which could have been the truth in season 6, there's that the writers of Endgame in season 7 are purported to think that Alice's Queen in Endgame was the same Queen that Janeway had been butting heads with even if Alice's TV Queen wasn't the same Queen Alice's Movie Queen which keeps in line with the season 6 writers rooms beliefs above board.

Your prooving things in the wrong direction.
Nope, she didn't just decide they were different, she was told that they were. Susanna Thompson even had an extra prosthesis on her throat that Alice Krige didn't have in First Contact, but did have in Endgame.

But since you don't like my "Memory Alpha" evidence, then here is a quote from the Trek Website.

Information on this being is still very limited. Apparently the Borg Queen has been destroyed on a number of occasions, but another queen always seems to take her place. (It is not clear whether more than one queen exists simultaneously, or if a new queen is created when the old one dies.) The Borg's collective nature makes it likely that each Borg Queen has all her predecessors' (and/or counterparts') qualities and memories. Therefore when she speaks as "I," she is presumably referring to all previous manifestations of the Queen, going back probably thousands of years.
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/borg-queen

I can buy that all the Queens had access to all the previous Queen's memories, but the bodies were different, and the Queen could physically die. Her replacement was always there in her circle of drones in Unimatrix One, just like Seven of Nine.
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Old January 25 2013, 05:37 AM   #48
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

I did read your memory Alpha link and then I read the Memory Alpha Link for Endgame where Alice admitted that she read the previous Borg Queen Voyager scripts in preparation of this role and resuming the character.

Alice thinks that the characters are the same and no one saw fit to change her mind.

Ideas behind the scenes are fluid.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm only saying that they're inconsistent.

When they did their press for Dark Frontier it's possible that they hadn't started writing Endgame yet.
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Old January 25 2013, 10:58 AM   #49
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

I've said before, The Borg were best when they were like a "slasher movie" bad guy.

Just this silent, unstoppable force.

To me, The Borg were great in "Q Who" and "Best of both worlds", past that they started to humanise them and they lost their edge, they were still borderline respectable until Voyager started dabbling with them, but as soon as we saw Species 8472 brutally destroying them, that was that.

Oddly, the Enterprise Borg Episode (forget the name) was somewhat of a renaissance for The Borg, and the first time they had been a legit threat for years.
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Old January 25 2013, 11:03 AM   #50
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

I think Deep Space Nine used them just the right amount.

"Oh, I'm a widow? Fuuuuuuuuuck."
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Old January 25 2013, 11:09 AM   #51
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I think Deep Space Nine used them just the right amount.

"Oh, I'm a widow? Fuuuuuuuuuck."
Haha, it was shocking DS9 managed to use them so little.

But i basically agree, they should be seen once or twice in a 7 season cycle, we don't need to know everything about them, they should be an unknown, mysterious.

Voyager couldn't get enough of the ol' borg, and watered them down to an unacceptable level.
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Old January 25 2013, 11:16 AM   #52
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

First Contact happened during ds9's run?

Yes it did.

Thank you very much.

"Tough little ship."

Fuck you monkey!

I hate Riker.

Such a smug SOB.

Tar and feathers is too good for him.
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Old January 25 2013, 11:32 AM   #53
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

I am cheered by these sentiments.
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Old January 25 2013, 02:46 PM   #54
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm only saying that they're inconsistent.

When they did their press for Dark Frontier it's possible that they hadn't started writing Endgame yet.
Oh I do understand that, and I'm not saying you are wrong either, but the idea of them being the same queen doesn't work for me. You know Guy, you are a lot of fun to spar with.

The idea that First Contact and Scorpion happened one after the other within a very short span of time got me thinking. Actually it made me write Borg Queen fic LOL, and not the naughty stuff I usually write.
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Old January 25 2013, 02:55 PM   #55
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
What about the Borg losing to the 8472 aliens, was that "wrong" as well?
I don't believe so.There's always a bigger fish! And no one's invulnerable!
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Old January 25 2013, 04:48 PM   #56
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

Brit wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm only saying that they're inconsistent.

When they did their press for Dark Frontier it's possible that they hadn't started writing Endgame yet.
Oh I do understand that, and I'm not saying you are wrong either, but the idea of them being the same queen doesn't work for me. You know Guy, you are a lot of fun to spar with.

The idea that First Contact and Scorpion happened one after the other within a very short span of time got me thinking. Actually it made me write Borg Queen fic LOL, and not the naughty stuff I usually write.
As a hypothetical...

The Alice Kriege Queen loves Picard.

Something awful happens to Picard, so she goes back in time to save him when he's still young and beautiful in 2373.

You say she died in Endgame?

I say that in Admiral Janeway's original timeline that the Queen lived well past 2378 which some people insist survived intact and the Admiral is not responsible for universal slaughter... Omnicide? But Seven admitted what the Borg did to 2063 duing Year of Hell. So the Queen entered History before the Admiral did.

If the Queen wanted to go back in time, why wait till she got to Earth? Why fight the Federation fleet for nine hours before she decided to play with time? How could the fleet have lasted nine hours unless she didn't want to kill them, and the Queen could have back stepped while she was still in Borg space and avoided any fuss. Why was she fighting left handed?

Maybe she was waiting for Picard?

Her boyfriend.

If so, then First Contact happened after Endgame.

Of course, why then did Picard remember Alice's Queen from the Best of Both Worlds flash back?

He didn't remember the Queen at all before the movie.

The memory might have been a faaaaaaaaaake?

(Or tweaked.)
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; January 25 2013 at 05:25 PM.
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Old January 25 2013, 05:17 PM   #57
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

Infern0 wrote: View Post
they were still borderline respectable until Voyager started dabbling with them, but as soon as we saw Species 8472 brutally destroying them, that was that.
If TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens, would you still say that? Or what if they had shown Q casually destroying a Borg ship?
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Old January 25 2013, 05:33 PM   #58
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

We frequently (in the franchise) saw incorporeal life forms as the pinnacle of evolution. Why weren't the Borg trying to achieve this? Or maybe they were, in their own misguided way.
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Old January 25 2013, 11:19 PM   #59
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

teacake wrote: View Post
I am cheered by these sentiments.


Aww... he just wants to be loved.
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Old January 25 2013, 11:33 PM   #60
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Re: 'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

"First Contact" really changed the concept of the Borg, with the introduction of the queen making them a lot less interesting. "Dark Frontier" merely went off from there, but yes, the "villain decay" did start with this episode, with Janeway marching right into Borg HQ and coming out victorious.
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