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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old February 20 2013, 05:02 AM   #166
sojourner
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Supreme Court?? Canon??? Lawl.
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Old February 20 2013, 05:58 AM   #167
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Christopher wrote: View Post

Fans put all this energy into talking and arguing and worrying about whether one thing is canon or another thing isn't, as if canon were some important, fixed truth they could rely on, but it really doesn't matter that much. It's just a label.
The BBS would be a pretty dead place if we didn't.
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Old February 20 2013, 06:02 AM   #168
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Nah, we can always find something to talk about. Like the color of Kirk's shirt.
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Old February 20 2013, 06:04 AM   #169
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Or the color of the warp nacelles.

Hell, we like to talk about colors period.
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Old February 20 2013, 06:06 AM   #170
Saul
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Nah, we can always find something to talk about. Like the color of Kirk's shirt.
Green with a slight hint of gold as it appears onscreen.

That's canon
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Old February 20 2013, 06:10 AM   #171
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Saul wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Nah, we can always find something to talk about. Like the color of Kirk's shirt.
Green with a slight hint of gold as it appears onscreen.

That's canon
Depends on the screen.
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Old February 20 2013, 07:14 AM   #172
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

I still don't think that it's the woman who's speaking, look at the bubble with the text. It's always used in this format when the person talking is not being seen in the picture!
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Old February 20 2013, 07:22 AM   #173
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
I still don't think that it's the woman who's speaking, look at the bubble with the text. It's always used in this format when the person talking is not being seen in the picture!
Or, perhaps, if the person talking is doing so via the viewscreen?
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Old February 20 2013, 07:44 AM   #174
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

I gotta call "fan-wank" here. It's great fun to see so many not-so-mainstream references to TOS in this issue. That being said, however, I'll bet less than 1% of what's in these comics makes it into the movie.

Look at the last "Countdown" series, leading up to the 2009 movie. We were treated to all of the TNG cast -- Picard, Worf, Geordi, so on -- we were told the Narada was Borg technology, etc... etc... etc...

But when the film hit the big screen, the ONLY thing that carried over from the comics was that Spock and Nero had fallen into a wormhole, after the destruction of Romulus.

So, come May, I'm guessing the only likely elements of this miniseries to end up in the movie are the debate about the Prime Directive, maybe Robert April (if so, it's Peter Weller), and something we won't see until the fourth issue.

A Bajoran Mudd is nothing more than wishful thinking and a distraction. It'll never see the light of day when the movie is released, because of the fact it's too obscure and intricate. And you can take that to the bank!
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Old February 20 2013, 08:03 AM   #175
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

There's a very slight chance that Nolan North might be playing Capt. April.

Early on in this thread someone did a comparison of Norths pic and that of the drawing of April in the comic...

There's an uncanny similarity.
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Old February 20 2013, 08:16 AM   #176
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Or, perhaps, if the person talking is doing so via the viewscreen?
Could be. Although it almost seems as if she is choking someone.
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Old February 20 2013, 09:55 AM   #177
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Ketrick wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The comics are not actually canonical, as Orci has told us dozens of times.
True, but it's not quite that simple. First, he's made it clear that the reason they're not canonical is simply because the Supreme Court doesn't feel it's right to change the current rule that only what's on film is canon, not that the decision has anything to do with whether or not they believe the comics are canon worthy. Also, he's made it clear that a future court may decide they are canon and he also stated that he wouldn't mind if Countdown were adapted into an animated dtv thus making it canon. Second, he stated in the recent startrek.com interview that while they aren't canon, the comics are as close you can get to being canon without being filmed which IMO makes them at least semi-canonical.
That the primeverse novels have been freely contradicting events from Countdown in their version of the post-Nemesis continuity makes it pretty clear that they're not canon. The comics are one continuity, the novels another, Star Trek Online a third, all based on TV/film Trek but extrapolating from them differently.

Gene Roddenberry wrote the novelization of TMP, Denny Martin Flynn wrote a post-STVI novel called The Fearful Summons and Brannon Braga co-wrote a comic called Hive. I'm sure they all considered them what definitively "happened" in the Trekverse, but all have been ignored and contradicted by one thing or another. Canon is the body of established work that later work is supposed to remain consistent with. And they haven't.

(not that canon has a very good track record of remaining consistent - see the videos in my sig for examples)
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Old February 20 2013, 01:43 PM   #178
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Ketrick wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The comics are not actually canonical, as Orci has told us dozens of times.
True, but it's not quite that simple. First, he's made it clear that the reason they're not canonical is simply because the Supreme Court doesn't feel it's right to change the current rule that only what's on film is canon, not that the decision has anything to do with whether or not they believe the comics are canon worthy. Also, he's made it clear that a future court may decide they are canon and he also stated that he wouldn't mind if Countdown were adapted into an animated dtv thus making it canon. Second, he stated in the recent startrek.com interview that while they aren't canon, the comics are as close you can get to being canon without being filmed which IMO makes them at least semi-canonical.
That the primeverse novels have been freely contradicting events from Countdown in their version of the post-Nemesis continuity makes it pretty clear that they're not canon. The comics are one continuity, the novels another, Star Trek Online a third, all based on TV/film Trek but extrapolating from them differently.

Gene Roddenberry wrote the novelization of TMP, Denny Martin Flynn wrote a post-STVI novel called The Fearful Summons and Brannon Braga co-wrote a comic called Hive. I'm sure they all considered them what definitively "happened" in the Trekverse, but all have been ignored and contradicted by one thing or another. Canon is the body of established work that later work is supposed to remain consistent with. And they haven't.

(not that canon has a very good track record of remaining consistent - see the videos in my sig for examples)
I never said they were canon. I was merely making the point that their canonical status isn't a simple open and shut case, that it's more complicated than Christopher's statement implied.

Btw, how have the Primeverse novels contradicted the events of Countdown? My understanding is that none of the novels with the exception of the STO novel and an Enterprise novel have taken place after or even during 2387.

I would also point out that there is a far better argument for making these comics canon than any others by creators in the past. For one thing, there has never been this consistent involvement of creators before in Trek literature, not even Jeri Taylor. For another, it can be argued that the creation of the alternate reality makes it necessary to consider changing the normal practice of only what is on film is canon for that reality because it's quite possible that only three movies and perhaps an animated series will take place in it and simply that the AR is a new and mostly separate unit and thus the old policy need not necessarily apply in this instance.

Last edited by Ketrick; February 20 2013 at 02:03 PM.
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Old February 20 2013, 02:08 PM   #179
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

Ketrick wrote: View Post
Btw, how have the Primeverse novels contradicted the events of Countdown? My understanding is that none of the novels with the exception of the STO novel and an Enterprise novel have taken place after or even during 2387.
Data's return in the novels is totally different to the version in Countdown. In the comic, Data basically awakens in B-4's body. In the novels (without spoiling too much), they explicitly say that Data's memories are too complex for B-4's positronic matrix to handle and their being there is actually causing him damage.
I would also point out that there is a far better argument for making these comics canon than any others by creators in the past. For one thing, there has never been this consistent involvement of creators before in Trek literature, not even Jeri Taylor. For another, it can be argued that the creation of the alternate reality makes it necessary to consider changing the normal practice of only what is on film is canon for that reality because it's quite possible that only three movies and perhaps an animated series will take place in it and simply that the AR is a new and mostly separate unit and thus the old policy need not necessarily apply in this instance.
I see what you're saying, but I have a hard time reconciling some of the concepts in the comics with the movies. Specifically the Narada's cloaking device from Countdown (it could fire while cloaked!) and the intruder countermeasures which skewered Worf in Countdown and vapourized several Klingon technicians in the Nero comic. If the movie ship had those abilities, Kirk and Spock wouldn't have lasted very long once they beamed over! IDK if the movie adaptation incorporates these elements and modifies the story accordingly (haven't read it), but it seems they've taken a few too many liberties to say they're the comics are the exact same continuity as the films.
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Old February 20 2013, 02:17 PM   #180
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Re: COUNTDOWN TO DARKNESS 5-page preview

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Specifically the Narada's cloaking device from Countdown (it could fire while cloaked!) and the intruder countermeasures which skewered Worf in Countdown and vapourized several Klingon technicians in the Nero comic. If the movie ship had those abilities, Kirk and Spock wouldn't have lasted very long once they beamed over!
Don't forget that the Narada took heavy damage when the Kelvin crashed into her.
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