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Old April 1 2013, 03:23 PM   #76
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Just started listening to it now.
Can't wait to hear what you think!
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Old April 4 2013, 09:35 AM   #77
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

That got kinda intense there, didn't it?

You were basically verbalising arguments I've had in my own head for many years. I feel like the discussion lost the connection to Star Trek a couple of times when the subject matter ranged more widely and you got into more general real-world issues. But I guess that's a good thing - that you can get so much to discuss out of only a single episode of the show. I'm just not sure anyone coming in half way through would even realise it was a Star Trek podcast!

For myself, I'm definitely not religious. I've said before that viewing DS9 and writing my own DS9-related stuff has helped me to at least look at other perspectives than my own. But we all come to this issue through the prism of our own experiences.

For me, I was nominally raised CofE, but only at a very basic level - church was Christmas and Easter only. Even that I refused to do any longer after about 12 or so, because I saw no value or point in it, and to continue to go when I didn't actually believe in any of the stuff they were saying would just be hypocritical. And since then I've lead a pretty much religion-free life, at least day-to-day.

But as I've grown up, I've become more aware of the effect religion has on the wider world, and frankly it's difficult sometimes not to see only the negative. Church of England is generally not a very extreme religion. There's a great Eddie Izzard piece where he points out how it's kind of impossible to be a Church of England fundamentalist ("You must have tea and cake with the vicar or you die!"), so I don't feel like I've suffered much there. But looking at the hatred that one sees coming out of some of the larger organised religions - Catholic, Southern Baptist, Mormon, Islam and others - it's kind of tough to remain sanguine.

Given who I am, the prism I'm currently looking at all this through is the equal marriage debate raging across America right now. So many people using religious arguments to justify blatant discrimination against me and my kind, not just in the US but all over the world. And it's the same arguments they used against racial desegregation or women getting the vote.

I try to remember that far from all religious people are hateful of others, that the vast majority are perfectly ordinary, nice, normal people who just have a faith - your Kiras and Bareils and Shakaars. But it's the hateful ones who make all the noise and get all the attention, and they're trying to write their bigotry into law under the guise of "God", when a) the Bible doesn't actually say anything like what they're claiming it does, and b) even if it did, religion has no place in civil law anyway.

This is one of the most hilarious examples I've found - http://technoccult.net/archives/2009...-extra-absurd/ It's a tattoo someone got quoting Leviticus' anti-gay chapter to prove just how much they hate the gays... while completely ignoring the fact that Leviticus also bans tattoos. Just goes to show how people utilize religion to justify their own hatred of others, even when it's completely irrational.

You say both sides have their extremists, and I can't deny that. There are raging religion-haters just as much as there are crazy whackjob fundies. I try not to be one of them - I try to remain moderate and rational on my side just as you do on yours. But it's tough sometimes.

You also say that both sides look down on the others and think they're superior, and there I'm not so sure I agree. From my perspective, it looks like the religious people are actively going out of their way to persecute and discriminate against us. Whereas we, on the other hand, would be perfectly content to go about our own business and not bother anybody else if only they would leave us alone. But since they refuse to do that, we have to fight back. Maybe that's comparing extremists on their side to moderates on mine, but I feel like there wouldn't be any extremists on our side if there didn't need to be to counter the extremists on theirs. Basically, it boils down to "they started it."

If it really is just the loudmouths who are anti-gay and the moderates are actually perfectly fine with it or just don't care one way or the other, then I really wish those moderates would speak up louder and make it clear that the loudmouths don't speak for everyone. That seems to be happening gradually.

Here's another great thread that gives me hope. http://www.pantagraph.com/news/opini...9bb2963f4.html Some woman wrote into an online newspaper claiming that "gay marriage threatens my religious freedom." Out of nearly 100 comments, almost every one is telling her how full of crap she is - most in a respectful way, trying to explain how every point she made is incorrect and why. People are shouting down the fundies. It is getting better, to coin a phrase.

But it's not until the fundie whackjob types are removed from their undeserved positions of influence that society at large will have more respect for religion in general. I think more people would be open to a spiritual life - perhaps even me - if they didn't find the religious establishment so restrictive and draconian and anti-anything-that-isn't-straight-white-male.

As I say, I recognize that you do not appear to be that kind of person, Matthew, and I am glad for it. This is not a rant against you personally, and I hope you don't take it as such. I'm just trying to explain some of the reasons that I see why people may be against religion, and it's not just over a different worldview, but rather because religion is used against them.

All of which proves I can go off topic way more than you can.

.
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Old April 4 2013, 01:30 PM   #78
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

lvsxy808 I think the only thing that I can say is that no one likes to be told that they are wrong, humans hate that, I hate that. For me, I believe in God and he that created the world and because of that I trust that the creator knows what's best. It might sound simplistic, but if he says there is a best way, I want to follow that way. The worldview foundation for me is this; there is a God and that I can know who he is and what he thinks is best. With that as my foundation, it shapes everything else.

Living out these beliefs does not make me superior or better than anyone. I don't always follow my beliefs well, I'm human, but I strive to live them out in a way that is consistent, so that means my fundamental presupposition about the world and God will shape every other belief I have. In all, I do firmly believe the clash is one of worldviews because what we believe about God, whether we believe in one or not, shapes everything else. Since therefore I believe in a personal, relational, creator God who loves us, then that will make my worldview quite different from one who believes in "something" or no god at all.

I am called to live out what I believe and I try to do so with love and respect for others, no one was ever won over by hate. I am glad you do not think I am a hater, I strive not to be. I am glad that God does not require my perfection because if he did, I'd never be able to make it. I'm so glad God gives grace and because of that grace I want to extend grace to others. Thanks for sharing your views with me. We may not agree, but there is nothing but respect from me.
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Old April 4 2013, 01:58 PM   #79
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

Oh absolutely, I have no hard feelings here at all. I'm not trying to attack you.

Not be perfectly frank in an unflattering manner, when I first learned that you were a person of faith, my kneejerk reaction was negative. But that is down to the experiences I mentioned above - with other people - and reflects only on me, not on you. At no point either on the boards or on the podcasts have you ever come across as one of those type of people, and so it has been proven to me that my kneejerk assumption was wrong. In fact I wish a lot more religious people had your outlook on life, instead of trying to impose their outlook on me.

To bring it back to some semblance of topic, DS9 does as you say bring that understanding into the franchise - that science and religion do not necessarily have to be inconsistent with one another. I do believe the aphorism that science and religion are just different ways of explaining the same things. I just personally fall on one side of the line while you fall on the other. As long as we can all respect that the other side is valid, we'll all be good. The problem comes when people do not accept that the other side is valid.

.
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Old April 4 2013, 02:31 PM   #80
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Oh absolutely, I have no hard feelings here at all. I'm not trying to attack you.

Not be perfectly frank in an unflattering manner, when I first learned that you were a person of faith, my kneejerk reaction was negative. But that is down to the experiences I mentioned above - with other people - and reflects only on me, not on you. At no point either on the boards or on the podcasts have you ever come across as one of those type of people, and so it has been proven to me that my kneejerk assumption was wrong. In fact I wish a lot more religious people had your outlook on life, instead of trying to impose their outlook on me.

To bring it back to some semblance of topic, DS9 does as you say bring that understanding into the franchise - that science and religion do not necessarily have to be inconsistent with one another. I do believe the aphorism that science and religion are just different ways of explaining the same things. I just personally fall on one side of the line while you fall on the other. As long as we can all respect that the other side is valid, we'll all be good. The problem comes when people do not accept that the other side is valid.

.
I like your last point. As a person of faith I am very excited to see what scientific discoveries will be made about our world. So, to me, science and faith are both part of understanding the whole. Since I believe in God I don't believe in a dualism as if they are on opposite sides. God made the world and science is one of the tools we have to understand that creation and faith in God informs and motivates my curiosity.
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Old April 4 2013, 03:06 PM   #81
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

There's a line in a Babylon 5 episode actually that says basically the same thing.

To paraphrase: "Faith and science are like the shoes on your feet. You can walk further and longer with both than you can with only one."

.
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Old April 4 2013, 03:10 PM   #82
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
There's a line in a Babylon 5 episode actually that says basically the same thing.

To paraphrase: "Faith and science are like the shoes on your feet. You can walk further and longer with both than you can with only one."

.
Amen!
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Old April 8 2013, 01:20 PM   #83
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

Our newest episode is out!
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Old April 9 2013, 12:30 AM   #84
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

Great episodes, as usual, this week and last week. Regarding last week's, I really enjoyed your guest, even though you could spend like 2 more episodes talking about Garak and barely even scratch the surface. I also liked the idea of Garak seeking revenge in In the Pale Moonlight towards Sisko, and it does make a little sense. It does put the episode in a different light if you think about it.

As for this week's, you guys had some interesting selections for episodes, and one that actually came out of left field. The one that was surprising was Looking for Par Mach in All The Wrong Places. I like the episode too, but I wouldn't put it as DS9's best or even consider it a favorite episode. Were these favorites, or episodes that you guys thought showcased DS9. The other episode I did agree with was Sound of Her Voice. I love that episode, and it's one of the more understated episodes in the season. Yeah it might have been a cop out to make Lisa dead at the end, but like you guys said, it was a good Therapeutic session for the crew, something they really needed before the finale and what came after.
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Old April 9 2013, 01:40 PM   #85
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Great episodes, as usual, this week and last week. Regarding last week's, I really enjoyed your guest, even though you could spend like 2 more episodes talking about Garak and barely even scratch the surface. I also liked the idea of Garak seeking revenge in In the Pale Moonlight towards Sisko, and it does make a little sense. It does put the episode in a different light if you think about it.

As for this week's, you guys had some interesting selections for episodes, and one that actually came out of left field. The one that was surprising was Looking for Par Mach in All The Wrong Places. I like the episode too, but I wouldn't put it as DS9's best or even consider it a favorite episode. Were these favorites, or episodes that you guys thought showcased DS9. The other episode I did agree with was Sound of Her Voice. I love that episode, and it's one of the more understated episodes in the season. Yeah it might have been a cop out to make Lisa dead at the end, but like you guys said, it was a good Therapeutic session for the crew, something they really needed before the finale and what came after.
My goal in picking mine was not just to do "the best" but also to showcase episodes that I like and think show the versatility of the series as well as it's greatness.
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Old April 10 2013, 03:40 AM   #86
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Great episodes, as usual, this week and last week. Regarding last week's, I really enjoyed your guest, even though you could spend like 2 more episodes talking about Garak and barely even scratch the surface. I also liked the idea of Garak seeking revenge in In the Pale Moonlight towards Sisko, and it does make a little sense. It does put the episode in a different light if you think about it.

As for this week's, you guys had some interesting selections for episodes, and one that actually came out of left field. The one that was surprising was Looking for Par Mach in All The Wrong Places. I like the episode too, but I wouldn't put it as DS9's best or even consider it a favorite episode. Were these favorites, or episodes that you guys thought showcased DS9. The other episode I did agree with was Sound of Her Voice. I love that episode, and it's one of the more understated episodes in the season. Yeah it might have been a cop out to make Lisa dead at the end, but like you guys said, it was a good Therapeutic session for the crew, something they really needed before the finale and what came after.
My goal in picking mine was not just to do "the best" but also to showcase episodes that I like and think show the versatility of the series as well as it's greatness.
Are you thinking about doing an episode where you talk about episodes that didn't necessarily work? You can still love the series but be critical and I would be interested in hearing what you guys thought DS9 could have done better.
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Old April 10 2013, 02:00 PM   #87
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Great episodes, as usual, this week and last week. Regarding last week's, I really enjoyed your guest, even though you could spend like 2 more episodes talking about Garak and barely even scratch the surface. I also liked the idea of Garak seeking revenge in In the Pale Moonlight towards Sisko, and it does make a little sense. It does put the episode in a different light if you think about it.

As for this week's, you guys had some interesting selections for episodes, and one that actually came out of left field. The one that was surprising was Looking for Par Mach in All The Wrong Places. I like the episode too, but I wouldn't put it as DS9's best or even consider it a favorite episode. Were these favorites, or episodes that you guys thought showcased DS9. The other episode I did agree with was Sound of Her Voice. I love that episode, and it's one of the more understated episodes in the season. Yeah it might have been a cop out to make Lisa dead at the end, but like you guys said, it was a good Therapeutic session for the crew, something they really needed before the finale and what came after.
My goal in picking mine was not just to do "the best" but also to showcase episodes that I like and think show the versatility of the series as well as it's greatness.
Are you thinking about doing an episode where you talk about episodes that didn't necessarily work? You can still love the series but be critical and I would be interested in hearing what you guys thought DS9 could have done better.
I think that will definitely be something we do, I am sure we will do guilty pleasures as well.
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Old April 11 2013, 11:43 AM   #88
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

Just listened to the Garak episode on the way to work this morning. It is amazing, isn't it, how there can be so much to discuss about a character who appeared in only 33 episodes out of 175 - less than a fifth. That's a testament not only to the writers, but also of course to the actor, who gave the writers reason to give him such good material.

Una and you both gave me things to think about I hadn't considered before - the link from "Second Skin" to "In the Pale Moonlight," or the effects of his relationship with Ziyal and later her death. I don't think he loved her in a romantic sense, but he certainly loved having her around as simply another Cardassian, and one who wasn't involved in all the other shenanigans Cardassians generally are. Good stuff to think about.

Onto the next one!

.
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Old April 11 2013, 03:13 PM   #89
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Just listened to the Garak episode on the way to work this morning. It is amazing, isn't it, how there can be so much to discuss about a character who appeared in only 33 episodes out of 175 - less than a fifth. That's a testament not only to the writers, but also of course to the actor, who gave the writers reason to give him such good material.

Una and you both gave me things to think about I hadn't considered before - the link from "Second Skin" to "In the Pale Moonlight," or the effects of his relationship with Ziyal and later her death. I don't think he loved her in a romantic sense, but he certainly loved having her around as simply another Cardassian, and one who wasn't involved in all the other shenanigans Cardassians generally are. Good stuff to think about.

Onto the next one!

.
Having Una on was a honor. As anyone can tell Garak is her favorite character so to pick her brain about this enigma was just a joy and I am glad you enjoyed it!
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Old April 16 2013, 01:47 PM   #90
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Re: The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

The new Orb is out and it's all about Worf, "One bat'leth to rule them all"!
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