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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old January 21 2013, 02:18 AM   #46
iguana_tonante
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Re: Jadzia

Dankokoro wrote: View Post
You..Complete..Whore.
Well, didn't take much time. You had such a good start, talking about bad acting, lackluster character arcs, and inconsistent writing... all good, sensible reasons to dislike her character. Turns out it was good ol' misogyny. Too bad.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
I'm not a hater of Jadzia--


And yet, you always find the time to say something offensive about her every time she's mentioned. What an unlikely coincidence!

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Still...I do find her constant "irreverence" quite off-putting. She constantly goes out of her way to make jokes at the expense of everyone and everything she can--and when someone dares to bust her chops, she acts all offended!

There's also the running gag that whenever a secret a regular wants to be kept--and it gets spread around the station...the explanation almost invariably is that "so-and-so told Dax"--"Oh, well, yeah--that explains it."

And then, there's the constant mind game she seemed to enjoy playing at Bashir's expense--spinning him around her finger, and snickering all the way. *sigh*

In short, she has respect for precious little--while she seems incapable of laughing at herself.
Weren't you guys hating on her because she was "too perfect"? Seems you are pretty inconsistent with your complaining.

JustKate wrote: View Post
Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
And then, there's the constant mind game she seemed to enjoy playing at Bashir's expense--spinning him around her finger, and snickering all the way. *sigh*
The more I think about it, Jadzia was pretty danged manipulative when it came to Bashir... and Quark, for that matter. She knew they both had feelings for her, and she loved using it against them. If there's anything I can't stand, it's somebody who toys with others' emotions.
I would say that rather than having "feelings" for her, what Bashir and Quark had for her was the hots. Not a lot of feeling there (at least not in the heart or mind ) is what I'm saying. If they did have feelings for her that were more substantive than lust, they didn't let these "deep" feelings get in way of making plays for plenty of other women, that's for sure.

And maybe this is because I am a female too, but I say any guy who goes around making passes at a woman who has made it very clear she isn't interested in him deserves to find out over and over again that - guess what - she is not interested in him. Actually, any female who does this (e.g. Chapel and Spock) deserves the same treatment as well.

I found many of Jadzia's "flirty" moments heavy-handed - not sure if that was Ferrell's fault, the writers' or both. But it is silly to equate flirting with whoredom.
Nonono, you have it wrong: women who flirts with men are whores.

Socially maladjusted geeks have troubles discerning between playful teasing as a normal social interaction and actual signals of sexual interest. This is why sometimes they think a woman is interested in them, and when they find out she's not and she was only enjoying some playful social niceties, they become enraged and feel they have been "led" and "wronged". I've found that much (obviously, not all) of the vitriol against Jadzia in fandom stems from apparently still-stinging memories of this kind of encounters.
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Old January 21 2013, 02:35 AM   #47
Dankokoro
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Re: Jadzia

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Well, didn't take much time. You had such a good start, talking about bad acting, lackluster character arcs, and inconsistent writing... all good, sensible reasons to dislike her character. Turns out it was good ol' misogyny. Too bad.
No, no.. you were right the first time.. it's all that other stuff. My dislike of Jadzia had been well and truly established before that scene.
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Old January 21 2013, 02:51 AM   #48
iguana_tonante
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Re: Jadzia

Forgive me, but I find your choice of word quite telling. People don't go around calling women "whores". Well, non-misogynistic people, at least.

Would you feel comfortable with someone commenting on Sisko's liking of gumbo or jazz as "You. Complete. [Rather-impolite-word-to-describe-black-people]"?
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Old January 21 2013, 03:17 AM   #49
JustKate
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Re: Jadzia

I am hoping Dankokoro's...overstatement is a result of his dislike for the character. Surely most us here don't equate flirting with immorality. Because if so, I must be a total slut.
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Old January 21 2013, 03:37 AM   #50
Dankokoro
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Re: Jadzia

JustKate wrote: View Post
I am hoping Dankokoro's...overstatement is a result of his dislike for the character.
More or less, yeah.. She's obviously not an actual whore (didn't think i'd have to explain myself on that one).

I did also have a problem with her flirting though, mainly because i didn't actually get the impression she was joking/teasing.. perhaps if was how Farrell delivered the lines (wouldn't be surprised)..

I guess I don't really get how joking about having sex later with a mostly naked guy, while her arm is around him is "harmless flirting".. Especially if he wouldn't know if she was joking or not? (i didn't). I mean, they didn't even know each other.. He's not to know she's "just being Jadzia".

I'm gonna have to watch the scene again.. at the time it was a serious WTF moment..
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Old January 21 2013, 04:27 AM   #51
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Re: Jadzia

Dankokoro wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
You... hoped her costars would be unprofessional?
Where did you read that? What i meant by "Creating problems behind the scenes", i really meant just generally the producers/creators/directors etc finding that she wasn't performing to expectations and was having a negative impact on the scenes she was in and on the overall quality of the show.

In other words i was hoping she'd get axed from the show.. Whether it be because she was unpopular with fans or the producers didn't think Farrell was working out, either would've worked for me.

I would be surprised if there weren't some behind the scenes discussions regarding Farrells lack lustre acting skills.
Oh, I gotcha. Sorry, I misunderstood you as saying that they'd be rude or dismissive towards her, something like that.

JustKate wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
er, that would still be wildly inappropriate if she were days away from marriage.
Why? Maybe we need to define flirting. It doesn't mean "I want to have sex with you," you realize. All it means is "You're attractive." You can still find other people attractive even if you're about to get married.


iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Dankokoro wrote: View Post
You..Complete..Whore.
Well, didn't take much time. You had such a good start, talking about bad acting, lackluster character arcs, and inconsistent writing... all good, sensible reasons to dislike her character. Turns out it was good ol' misogyny. Too bad.
I was hoping you'd turn up.

Dankokoro wrote: View Post
I guess I don't really get how joking about having sex later with a mostly naked guy, while her arm is around him is "harmless flirting".. Especially if he wouldn't know if she was joking or not? (i didn't). I mean, they didn't even know each other.. He's not to know she's "just being Jadzia".

I'm gonna have to watch the scene again.. at the time it was a serious WTF moment..
I seem to recall she was established as being pretty good friends with him, wasn't she? Could be wrong, though. And of course if he did misunderstand her intentions, it'd be somewhat embarrassing but nothing more than a "oh no, sorry, that was just kidding around earlier."

sonak wrote: View Post
I've found that pretentious posters with no sense of irony whatsoever about their own pretentiousness frequently make absurd and ridiculous generalizations that coincidentally, happen to mirror cultural stereotypes and cliches about certain groups and society. They also like to demonstrate their moral superiority and intellectual laziness by using buzz words like misogyny.
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Old January 21 2013, 04:28 AM   #52
sonak
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Re: Jadzia

JustKate wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
er, that would still be wildly inappropriate if she were days away from marriage.
Why? Maybe we need to define flirting. It doesn't mean "I want to have sex with you," you realize. All it means is "You're attractive." You can still find other people attractive even if you're about to get married.

I found many of Jadzia's "flirty" moments heavy-handed - not sure if that was Ferrell's fault, the writers' or both. But it is silly to equate flirting with whoredom.

er, I didn't use the word "whore," I used "inappropriate." Which I think it was. It was a little too suggestive to be the friendly "you're cute" kind of flirting, plus her being so close to marriage makes it a little more disrespectful. Nothing wrong with finding others attractive when you're married, though.
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Old January 21 2013, 04:29 AM   #53
sonak
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Re: Jadzia

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Dankokoro wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
You... hoped her costars would be unprofessional?
Where did you read that? What i meant by "Creating problems behind the scenes", i really meant just generally the producers/creators/directors etc finding that she wasn't performing to expectations and was having a negative impact on the scenes she was in and on the overall quality of the show.

In other words i was hoping she'd get axed from the show.. Whether it be because she was unpopular with fans or the producers didn't think Farrell was working out, either would've worked for me.

I would be surprised if there weren't some behind the scenes discussions regarding Farrells lack lustre acting skills.
Oh, I gotcha. Sorry, I misunderstood you as saying that they'd be rude or dismissive towards her, something like that.







I was hoping you'd turn up.

Dankokoro wrote: View Post
I guess I don't really get how joking about having sex later with a mostly naked guy, while her arm is around him is "harmless flirting".. Especially if he wouldn't know if she was joking or not? (i didn't). I mean, they didn't even know each other.. He's not to know she's "just being Jadzia".

I'm gonna have to watch the scene again.. at the time it was a serious WTF moment..
I seem to recall she was established as being pretty good friends with him, wasn't she? Could be wrong, though. And of course if he did misunderstand her intentions, it'd be somewhat embarrassing but nothing more than a "oh no, sorry, that was just kidding around earlier."

sonak wrote: View Post
I've found that pretentious posters with no sense of irony whatsoever about their own pretentiousness frequently make absurd and ridiculous generalizations that coincidentally, happen to mirror cultural stereotypes and cliches about certain groups and society. They also like to demonstrate their moral superiority and intellectual laziness by using buzz words like misogyny.

well to be fair, I thought better of that post and deleted it. Oh well, it was still true.
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Old January 21 2013, 06:48 AM   #54
Ryva Brall
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Re: Jadzia

Whoa. What happened to this thread while I was gone?

JustKate wrote: View Post
I would say that rather than having "feelings" for her, what Bashir and Quark had for her was the hots. Not a lot of feeling there (at least not in the heart or mind ) is what I'm saying. If they did have feelings for her that were more substantive than lust, they didn't let these "deep" feelings get in way of making plays for plenty of other women, that's for sure.

And maybe this is because I am a female too, but I say any guy who goes around making passes at a woman who has made it very clear she isn't interested in him deserves to find out over and over again that - guess what - she is not interested in him. Actually, any female who does this (e.g. Chapel and Spock) deserves the same treatment as well.
Okay, I'll concede that Quark and Bashir may not have had "deep" feelings for Jadzia, but they were both clearly infatuated with her, and I always thought that the "constant mind games", as Rush Limborg said, that she played with them were rather distasteful.

But then again, I've personally never thought much of flirting, anyway. I prefer being straight-forward about feelings, and all that teasing and "hard to get" stuff just confuses and irritates me. The curse of being a logical woman in an illogical world, I suppose.

I should just marry a Vulcan.
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Old January 21 2013, 07:47 AM   #55
iguana_tonante
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Re: Jadzia

Kestrel wrote: View Post
I was hoping you'd turn up.
I always do. Think of this as my Iguana-Signal.

sonak wrote: View Post
well to be fair, I thought better of that post and deleted it. Oh well, it was still true.
Please, leave it. I do have a healthy sense of irony. Can you say the same? Because your knee-jerk reaction seems to point the other way.

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
Whoa. What happened to this thread while I was gone?
Apparently, I turned up.

JustKate wrote: View Post
But then again, I've personally never thought much of flirting, anyway. I prefer being straight-forward about feelings, and all that teasing and "hard to get" stuff just confuses and irritates me.
As I've said, I've found this is often the origin of many people's dislike of Jadzia.
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Old January 21 2013, 07:52 AM   #56
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Re: Jadzia

Man, all this Jadzia hate! I enjoyed the character, and thought she worked great in the show. I agree Farrell wasn't as strong as some of the other actors, but that's highlighted because she was on DS9 - by FAR the best acted show. I thought she did a decent job, and I enjoyed her in episodes like Blood Oath, Trials and Tribble-ations, others.

In terms of being inappropriate with her flirting, I'd say she was no more or less inappropriate than Riker or Bashir or Quark. All those characters would come on to people all the time - though I didn't have a problem with them regarding their flirting. But Quark would even sexually harass people (grabbing them inappropriately, etc.) - that's definitely worse than Jadzia's flirting.

Indeed, Quark and Bashir came on strong to her, always chasing her - in extremely lustful ways (especially Quark). I always thought she was not trying to hurt their feelings by breaking it to them. Further, i don't think she really was any more 'overly friendly' (people think its flirting) with them than she was with Sisko.

I definitely don't think she was playing mind games, though that's just my interpretation and I can definitely see how people might think that. Many times I think she wasn't actually flirting but her whimsical and friendly demeanor caused others to think she was. I think the character tried to lighten others up some times - which I guess rubbed some the wrong way. Also, I think she wasn't arrogant at all.

But hey - that's just me! A few posters did have some reasonable critiques.

It's funny though, I've seen threads on other boards, or even been in conversation with people, where hate starts pouring on a character, like say Bashir or Kira, and I think to myself - am I crazy for liking him/her? Everyone seems to hate this character. But later, in say character polls (the most extensive I ever saw for DS9 had around 180 voters), the characters place fairly well.

Of course, there are characters who seem to be universally loved - Garak, Odo, to a lesser extent Quark - and characters who some love, some hate, to varying degrees, like Jadzia, Bashir, Kira, and even Sisko. Just my personal experience having spent way to much time reading/listening to people talk about DS9 for too many years

As an aside: It was especially funny regarding character hate - but not funny in a good way at the time - with my girlfriend from back in high school, whose entire family and some of her friends enjoyed the show but just hated Bashir - the character who I related to the most! Yeah, me and her didn't work out....

I personally really enjoyed all the characters (the only show I can say that about), except Bareil, who I found odd and spacey, and Shaakar, who I thought they could have done a better job with - though I didn't hate either. Well, there's also Kai Winn - but you're supposed to want to shoot yourself when she talks, so that's different.

Regarding the 'whore' thing, 'flirting' does not make someone 'a whore,' and that word connotes such a value judgement and double standard.

And no I'm not morally superior for saying so (who is in a position to judge that, especially on a message board?), nor am I intellectually lazy - but I do appreciate clever irony.
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Old January 21 2013, 07:57 AM   #57
Odo
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Re: Jadzia

JustKate wrote: View Post
I would say that rather than having "feelings" for her, what Bashir and Quark had for her was the hots. Not a lot of feeling there (at least not in the heart or mind ) is what I'm saying. If they did have feelings for her that were more substantive than lust, they didn't let these "deep" feelings get in way of making plays for plenty of other women, that's for sure.
.... but I say any guy who goes around making passes at a woman who has made it very clear she isn't interested in him deserves to find out over and over again that - guess what - she is not interested in him. Actually, any female who does this (e.g. Chapel and Spock) deserves the same treatment as well.
I agree 90%! (100% sounds better, doesn't it?) I'd just add that regarding Quark, he did truly care about Jadzia - though maybe not romantically -, though he really did lust after her as well of course. Bashir, on the other, while lusting after her and coming on really strong, was also romantically interested.
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Old January 21 2013, 08:02 AM   #58
Melakon
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Re: Jadzia

Odo wrote: View Post
. . .Of course, there are characters who seem to be universally loved - Garak, Odo, to a lesser extent Quark. . .
What's interesting is these are three characters where the actors' faces are heavily obscured.
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Old January 21 2013, 08:14 AM   #59
Odo
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Re: Jadzia

Melakon wrote: View Post
Odo wrote: View Post
. . .Of course, there are characters who seem to be universally loved - Garak, Odo, to a lesser extent Quark. . .
What's interesting is these are three characters where the actors' faces are heavily obscured.
Good point! Hmm..... I do think Robinson and Auberjonois were the two best actors, no question, and Shimmerman would definitely right after them with a few others.

But yeah, I wonder what role what you mentioned plays in our reception of them.
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Old January 21 2013, 11:22 AM   #60
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Re: Jadzia

The 'innocent flirting' while about to get married thing-- I think it's a 50/50 risk on that. Some people get extremely offended by it, others think it's harmless.

It looked like Worf ironically, brushed it all off.

In "Let He Who is Without Sin" she was doing some things with another female that looked very suggestive. It seems like that's just the way the woman was.

Say what you want about Jadzia, she wasn't a boring.

However.....the ass kicking, hang around with Klingons thing-- I think they went too far with all of that.


Jadzia was also one of the sexiest characters on the show when she wanted to be. In "Through the Looking Glass" was a pretty good example.
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