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View Poll Results: Did Klingon culture get over-simplified in later eras of Star TreK?
Yes 40 62.50%
No 24 37.50%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 15 2013, 03:56 PM   #16
Lance
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

If the Klingon homeworld at the time of "Heart Of Glory" truely is anything like that seen in most of TNG (and all of DS9), then the three renegades shouldn't have any complaint about the empire at all. Except for the treaty with the Federation, which they openly dislike.

The clear implication in the episode is that the renegades are social outcasts for their views about 'the glory days'. Worf's joining them in traditional death rituals and the like is depicted more along the lines of him humoring them, it wasn't supposed to be the way the Klingons behave 24/7!

An excellent opening post there, by the way. I enjoyed reading it immensely.
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Old January 15 2013, 04:13 PM   #17
USS Einstein
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

Thanks

I hope that we do get some better portrayals in future.
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Old January 15 2013, 09:25 PM   #18
JoeZhang
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

Really interesting opening post - what do you think of John Ford's The Final Reflection what I found to be far more interesting than anything we saw on TNG/DS9.
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Old January 15 2013, 09:47 PM   #19
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Really interesting opening post - what do you think of John Ford's The Final Reflection what I found to be far more interesting than anything we saw on TNG/DS9.
Agreed. TFR's Klingons were fantastic.
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Old January 15 2013, 10:54 PM   #20
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

The Klingons ended up a lot less simplified at the end of DS9 than at the beginning. By the end DS9 portrayed them as hypocrites and politicians who use honor to their advantage when it suits them and ignore it when nobody's watching.

DS9 era klingons believe in honor the same way republicans believe in family values. They talk about it a lot, they tell a lot of stories that cherish it, but only a handful of them actually practice it.
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Old January 15 2013, 11:00 PM   #21
Skywalker
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

Anwar wrote: View Post
DS9 showed us the Klingon Chef and the Klingon Lawyer. I don't think those guys fit the usual stereotype.
ENT did a little something like this, too. In the season two episode "Judgment" there was a Klingon lawyer (whose parents were a teacher and a biologist) who lamented that Klingon society used to be about more than just honor and glory in battle. And in the season four episodes "Affliction" and "Divergence" there was a Klingon doctor who was born into the warrior caste but chose to be a healer instead.
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Old January 15 2013, 11:16 PM   #22
USS Einstein
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

I don't think that the lawyer in ENT or lawyer in DS9 are great examples - they still missed the point.

Klingon society is still presented one-dimensionally, but now with added stereotypes gleaned from caste systems (ENT) - or in DS9's case, the prosecutor is interesting, but the society he is in still behaves absurdly.

As someone said on the other page, 2 minutes of Klingons talking calmly and logically in that JJ Abrams scene was like a breath of fresh air - for all their attempts to rationalise things, Klingons in ENT and DS9 still behaved like walking stereotypes.

"It's interesting that people talk about the deleted scene from Star Trek as offering something different, because when you watch it, you realize that what seems so different is that the actor is speaking in a calm voice, and that's enough of a diversion to make the whole thing seem completely fresh."

They lacked what filmmakers sometimes call 'naturalism'.
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Old January 15 2013, 11:20 PM   #23
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

In House Of Quark we see a guy who abuses the assumption that he is honorable in order to steal somebody's land with underhanded tactics.

In season 7 Ezri says "Screw the Klingon Empire, it deserves to die" and proceeds to prove to Worf that he's pretty much the only Klingon in the universe who still gives a crap about honor.

I think some of you are missing the point of the Klingons. The Klingons in the high council like Gowron don't care about honor, they only care about being perceived as having honor. That is far more three dimensional than just having a few Klingons hanging around who choose careers other than being a warrior.

Pretty much the entire Klingon arc starting in Sins Of The Father and leading toward the end of Gowron was about how the Klingons in fact do not actually care about honor anymore.
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Old January 15 2013, 11:29 PM   #24
USS Einstein
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The Klingons ended up a lot less simplified at the end of DS9 than at the beginning. By the end DS9 portrayed them as hypocrites and politicians who use honor to their advantage when it suits them and ignore it when nobody's watching.

DS9 era klingons believe in honor the same way republicans believe in family values. They talk about it a lot, they tell a lot of stories that cherish it, but only a handful of them actually practice it.
But there is still a problem - they are hypocritical and aggressive to the last man - not as single one of them behaves practically, naturally, rationally, or calmly - all hallmarks of sentience, that can't simply be explained away with genetic predispositions to aggression. It's as if the worst demagogues that you mentioned, were multiplied, and made up the entire of human society.

It begs the question: How did they ever start a civilization?

Thankfully, JJ Abrams applied the same natural standards to the Klingons in the short time we saw them, as he applied to the character of Sayid in Lost - an Iraqi Arab, Muslim, and former member of the Republican Guard (so maybe a Ba'athist sympathizer in the past) - yet not some one dimensional cardboard cutout who found it necessary to remind everyone he was a soldier, or Muslim, or Arab, every five minutes. That's natural writing - and that's natural human behavior.

I see these degenerate, reactionary, romanticist, racist, nationalist, bigoted, aggressive, moronic, technophobic, Luddite, philistine Klingons that we often got, as a poor sample of their population - hopefully, we will see from now on, that the majority of them behave more naturally.
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Old January 15 2013, 11:31 PM   #25
USS Einstein
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Really interesting opening post - what do you think of John Ford's The Final Reflection what I found to be far more interesting than anything we saw on TNG/DS9.
I have it, and will endevour to read it soon - all the more so, with this recommendation
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Old January 15 2013, 11:47 PM   #26
toughlittleship
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

Basically every Klingon we saw was either in the military or in the government, that obviously skewers the representation.
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Old January 16 2013, 12:04 AM   #27
USS Einstein
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

But it shouldn't make everyone a fanatic with borderline personality disorder.

As Lance and Mirrorball Man aptly pointed out, the regressive reactionaries seen in Heart of Glory, were meant to be an exception, not a rule.

It's like taking Hitler, an unbalanced romantic reactionary bigot, and using that as the basis for all Austrian culture in a TV series about Austrians
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Old January 16 2013, 12:12 AM   #28
USS Einstein
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

Just one last point before I go for today:

A villain you can admire, is a lot more effective, than some pantomime villain.
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Old January 16 2013, 12:22 AM   #29
indolover
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

I don't think they became too stereotyped. As has been said in the thread, Klingons actually became very nuanced, since we saw they didn't care about honour (or only when it served their purpose). I credit the writers in doing this, since it shows they are fallible and to some extent normal. Klingons, as humans in the real world, all hold their own agendas and perspectives.
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Old January 16 2013, 12:22 AM   #30
Dale Sams
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
In House Of Quark we see a guy who abuses the assumption that he is honorable in order to steal somebody's land with underhanded tactics.

In season 7 Ezri says "Screw the Klingon Empire, it deserves to die" and proceeds to prove to Worf that he's pretty much the only Klingon in the universe who still gives a crap about honor.

I think some of you are missing the point of the Klingons. The Klingons in the high council like Gowron don't care about honor, they only care about being perceived as having honor. That is far more three dimensional than just having a few Klingons hanging around who choose careers other than being a warrior.

Pretty much the entire Klingon arc starting in Sins Of The Father and leading toward the end of Gowron was about how the Klingons in fact do not actually care about honor anymore.
Re: That DS9 ep with Ezri's speech and Worf killing Gowron. I love that Ep. It's like the writers took every hypocritical thing we had seen up til now and rolled it up into one speech. It was beautiful.
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