most "wrong" episode...

[BillJ]

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

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I liked Dear Doctor ...because I don't mind the controversy.

I just can't stand the stupidity that the episode expects us to buy.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

BillJ wrote:

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I just can't stand the stupidity that the episode expects us to buy.

I disagree that it's stupid. You might disagree with the course of action taken in the end, but it's far from stupid. Left to evolve without interference from the Enterprise, the other species would eventually be the dominant species.

I really appreciate the pro-evolution stance Trek takes.

[TiberiusMaximus]

I'd say there's a difference. Tuvix wasn't some random crewmember; he only existed because of the loss of Tuvok and Neelix, because he's using their bodies/molecules/lives to exist. So I can see the argument that once Tuvok and Neelix can be restored, they are entitled to get their bodies/molecules/lives back, and Tuvix is not entitled to keep the bodies/molecules/lives of those two innocent people, even to preserve his own life.

That argument might hold water if Tuvix had been a malevolent parasitic alien who forcefully and intentionally stole their bodies. But that's not what Tuvix was. He didn't choose to take their bodies or to be created. The very fact that he was alive meant he had a right to be. Killing him to restore Tuvok and Neelix was in effect punishing him for the crime of...wait for it...existing.

"Dear Doctor" is ridiculous and stupid. I can't even go there.

"For The Uniform" is a strange one. Personally, I choose to think Sisko intentionally created a situation where the human and Cardassian colonies had to trade places which is somehow better for everybody. But that's just the head-canon I came up with in an attempt to justify the weirdness of Sisko's actions.

I liked Dear Doctor...because I don't mind the controversy.

The problem isn't controversy, the problem is that the view presented in the episode as praiseworthy are just plain wrong.

"In The Pale Moonlight" is a bit different. "Dear Doctor" presents an ethically wrong and morally disturbing attitude as the objective truth and then pats itself on the back. ITPM doesn't do that.

[plynch]

Re. Tuvix:
After they're gone in the transporter accident, Tuvok and Neelix do not exist, even if they might be recreated. Things that don't presently exist do not exist, and have no rights.

And let me add:
Re. Kirk and messing with happy cultures, yes that bugs me, but usually th Enterprise is in danger (Apple, Armageddon). The one that really bugs me is This Side of Paradise.

[Arpy]

Here's the thing. Evolution doesn't work that way. It isn't predestined. It's just a process of cause and effect. The fact of the matter is that they were there and could have helped but chose not to. We evolved too. We have a responsibility to act when we can to help. They raised their hands up and bestowed upon evolution a mystical pre-determination as though it were a god unfolding a higher plan.

[BillJ]

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

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I disagree that it's stupid. You might disagree with the course of action taken in the end, but it's far from stupid. Left to evolve without interference from the Enterprise, the other species would eventually be the dominant species.

I really appreciate the pro-evolution stance Trek takes.

Pro-evolution? The science presented in the episode is non-sensical and it completely discounts the fact that the Valakians evolved enough to ask for help and that the Menk looked to be evolving just fine even with the Valakian presence.

Then it pats itself on the back for being "bold".

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Arpy wrote:

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Here's the thing. Evolution doesn't work that way. It isn't predestined. It's just a process if cause and effect. The fact if the matter us that they were there and could have helped but chose not to. We evolved too. We gave a responsibility to act when we can to help. They raised their hands up and bestowed upon evolution a mystical pre-determination as though it were a god unfolding a higher plan.

I'm not saying I agree, but there is a case to be made, and some well-known atheists have made it, that there is no freewill, and that everything is predestined.

But, more to the point, I can see the prime directove (in this case, before it was actually a directive) intent on keeping us out of the natural evolution that would haev happened, just as it did for the death of a species in Homeward.

We don't have to agree with the ultimate decision in Dear Doctor, but that doesn't make it stupid. It would have been stupid if both Archer and Phlox didn't think carefully about the decision, and moved on, but the whole episode was about a careful consideration about the meaning and implications of interference.


The point of the Prime Directive, the thing that makes it interesting for dramatic storytelling, is that you are supposed to remove empathy and emotion from the situations in which it would apply. Think about that.

[BillJ]

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

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The point of the Prime Directive, the thing that makes it interesting for dramatic storytelling, is that you are supposed to remove empathy and emotion from the situations in which it would apply. Think about that.

Don't forget that it also removes common-sense from the equation as well.

[Nightdiamond]

Tos is a huge offender. Like as stated before Turnabaout Intruder, women still aren't allowed to be starship captains, at least in the human world.

No explanation for it.

Another is "That Which Survives" where Sulu says "I don't want to have shoot a woman!"

Technically it sounds moral, but comes off really odd and sexist. Or pretty funny. As if it's more ok to shoot anything else,

Another is when someone does something horrible, and later the crew or captain lets the offender go and even helps them.

Another is where a bunch of mean aliens turn two crewmen into cubes, and then crushes one to powder (the female crewmen), and then restores the other, just to show their power.

Later Kirk escapes from them, calls a truce, gives them aid, calls them friend and sets course back for home without any mention of bringing the aliens up on charges.

[BillJ]

Nightdiamond wrote:

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Later Kirk escapes from them, calls a truce, gives them aid, calls them friend and sets course back for home without any mention of bringing the aliens up on charges.

You seem to forget the Kelvans still have an impressive tech edge over the Federation. I doubt the Federation could really keep them locked up if it came right down to it.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Another is where a bunch of mean aliens turn two crewmen into cubes, and then crushes one to powder (the female crewmen), and then restores the other, just to show their power.

Later Kirk escapes from them, calls a truce, gives them aid, calls them friend and sets course back for home without any mention of bringing the aliens up on charges.

If he hadn't done this, they would crushed the entire crew.

And, one could also say that, in the episode Kirk and his rew taught them about the vulnerabilities of humanity, and that if they had known that before, they might not have done what they did.

Sure everyone agrees that killing the female redshirt was wrong,but you can't impose consequences as normal to this race. I kind of compare it to the way Picard had no way to adequately punish Kevin Uxbridge in "The Survivors."

[Arpy]

I'm an atheist. And I can argue that it's all part of some massive equation and that free will is an illusion. One can imagine one has it like one can imagine running faster than the speed of light, but that isn't how the universe works.

But that still doesn't negate our ability and responsibility to act when we can...it doesn't mean we can throw a spiritual tantrum and not interact with our environment thinking that that puts us above it in some way. Heck, it sounds more like a form of depression: where one isolates oneself overwhelmed by the situation and does nothing till they feel comfortable again.

...Hope it doesn't sound like I'm attacking you, just the episode/its ideas. Gotta go!

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Arpy wrote:

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I'm an atheist. And I can argue that it's all part of some massive equation and that free will is an illusion. One can imagine one has it like one can imagine running faster than the speed of light, but that isn't how the universe works.

But that still doesn't negate our ability and responsibility to act when we can...it doesn't mean we can throw a spiritual tantrum and not interact with our environment thinking that that puts us above it in some way. Heck, it sounds more like a form of depression: where one isolates oneself overwhelmed by the situation and does nothing till they feel comfortable again.

...Hope it doesn't sound like I'm attacking you, just the episode/its ideas. Gotta go!

That's why I liked the episode, because it dared to rub us all the wrong way. Isn't that what some good fiction is supposed to do, to instigate conversation?

[BillJ]

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote:

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That's why I liked the episode, because it dared to rub us all the wrong way. Isn't that what some good fiction is supposed to do, to instigate conversation?

It's not that it dared to rub us the wrong way, it's the way it posited the dilemma.

Phlox says the Valakians are holding the Menk back from evolving. Yet we see a group that has it's own spoken language and is smart enough to work in hospitals of all places.

Phlox is simply wrong. These aren't the people on the cusp of an awakening, they are already there. Something he says won't happen for another thousand years, if ever. But he expects Archer to to allow billions to die on a possibility. Then he signs off on giving the Valakians something to control the symptoms for another ten years or so. Which makes no sense.

It's almost like they had two separate scripts that they tried to mash together and failed miserably.

Then you have no thought given to the possibility that the Valakian presence was the very thing driving the Menk to sentience. No thought given to the horrors the Menk would face when the Valakians die out.

Terrible, terrible episode. Andre Bormanis should've been fired if he thought that script passed scientific muster.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Let's say you're right, that Phlox was wrong. Our hero characters don't have to be right for an episode to be good. They don't to be right on the science.