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Old January 22 2013, 09:42 PM   #151
BillJ
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
The perfect scenario would have Archer's Enterprise receive some sort of plea into the dark from some random civilan on a world on the brink of nuclear annihilation. A few nukes are launched...Archer shoots them down...both sides think the other illegaly has satellite 'Star Wars' technology and they empty their arsenals. Archer can't shoot them all down and he realizes that the limited exchange might have prevented an all-out war ala' the novel "War Day"

But that also is kind of close to the novel "Prime Directive".
Best scenario is one that on the surface doesn't seem all that "big". I always imagined a scenario where a flash of technology at the wrong time sets off two sides willing to do anything to get the advantage over the other, with Federation personnel caught in the middle.
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Old January 22 2013, 11:42 PM   #152
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

sonak wrote: View Post
Instead, we got a fake dilemma based on pseudoscientific nonsense by writers that love to throw around the word "evolution" but don't have the science knowledge of a bright high school junior.
Actually the science presented in the episode is consistent with that shown in other episodes.

The episode The Chase put forward that much of the intelligent life in the galaxy was designed to occur. By a early species (sometimes) called the Progenitors.

Phlox might not have known the whole story, but he did seem to understand that intelligent life doesn't just happen (in the Star Trek universe) naturally, but is "preprogrammed' to be the result of the development of certain humanoid lifeforms.

Random selection plays no part.

Phlox's decisions are based upon his knowledge of how things are, observation of other species. Again, Phlox might not have all the pieces, but he does know that evolution of intelligence is something that is predetermined and built into a beings genetic structure. In his examination of the second species (I forget their name) Phlox might have seen the genetic markers of a future highly intelligent species, more so than with the first species.

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Old January 22 2013, 11:53 PM   #153
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Instead, we got a fake dilemma based on pseudoscientific nonsense by writers that love to throw around the word "evolution" but don't have the science knowledge of a bright high school junior.
Actually the science presented in the episode is consistent with that shown in other episodes.

The episode The Chase put forward that much of the intelligent life in the galaxy was designed to occur. By a early species (sometimes) called the Progenitors.

Phlox might not have known the whole story, but he did seem to understand that intelligent life doesn't just happen (in the Star Trek universe) naturally, but is "preprogrammed' to be the result of the development of certain humanoid lifeforms.

Random selection plays no part.

Phlox's decisions are based upon his knowledge of how things are, observation of other species. Again, Phlox might not have all the pieces, but he does know that evolution of intelligence is something that is predetermined and built into a beings genetic structure. In his examination of the second species (I forget their name) Phlox might have seen the genetic markers of a future highly intelligent species, more so than with the first species.

You kind of touched on something I wanted to express.. when people diss this episode one of the reasons some give is that they got evolution wrong, and evolutionists (or fifth grade science students) would cry foul.. however.. it's Trek, and while Trek pays service to science, it's fast and loose about it. So that particular argument with regards to "getting evolution wrong" is pretty weak, especially when it could be said that the evolution thing is at least consistent with other Trek canon, as you surmised.

Actual science is never the point: the dilemma presented and how they react to it is.
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Old January 23 2013, 02:25 AM   #154
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Your ethics don't do you much good if you cease to exist as a society. Federation historians and philosophers may look unfavorably on Sisko's actions, but they'll be able to pass those judgements in a free society because of those same actions.
True-I'd rather have the Federation around than any of the other two powers.

Not that many fans wasted any tears over them being tricked into it. The Romulans were very short sighted. Being a-holes didn't make it any harder.

The Federation/Starfleet knew all about their plan and gave Sisko their blessing. This is higher up people we're talking about.

But there's the issue of refusing aid to cultures who are fighting for freedom, like the Bajorans, and then have 'righteous anger' when another power refuses to help them when they might lose theirs.

Romulans, hate them or not, were exercising their sovereign right not to interfere in the war. Technically that would be an internal matter.

It's a subtle theme you can see in some episodes.

Janeway gets mad when another culture wouldn't share their travel technology that would get them home much faster.

Picard got mad when a time traveler from the future wouldn't tell them what was going to happen with their mission to save a planetary disaster.

Interestingly some of his own crew were on the planet .

Last edited by Nightdiamond; January 23 2013 at 09:24 AM.
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Old January 23 2013, 06:06 PM   #155
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Instead, we got a fake dilemma based on pseudoscientific nonsense by writers that love to throw around the word "evolution" but don't have the science knowledge of a bright high school junior.
Actually the science presented in the episode is consistent with that shown in other episodes.

The episode The Chase put forward that much of the intelligent life in the galaxy was designed to occur. By a early species (sometimes) called the Progenitors.

Phlox might not have known the whole story, but he did seem to understand that intelligent life doesn't just happen (in the Star Trek universe) naturally, but is "preprogrammed' to be the result of the development of certain humanoid lifeforms.

Random selection plays no part.

Phlox's decisions are based upon his knowledge of how things are, observation of other species. Again, Phlox might not have all the pieces, but he does know that evolution of intelligence is something that is predetermined and built into a beings genetic structure. In his examination of the second species (I forget their name) Phlox might have seen the genetic markers of a future highly intelligent species, more so than with the first species.


well, we don't get an indication that Phlox seems to think that there's an intelligence behind the genetic disease, just that it's "evolutionarily determined" or something. Again, I don't have a problem with Star Trek's pseudoscience in most cases, but I DO have a problem with it when it's getting uncomfortably close to the "biological racism/social darwinism" of the 19th century, and when it's being used to justify ethically monstrous decisions, like in "dear doctor." Further, Phlox' ideology is simply inconsistent with being a doctor. Why doesn't he just tell people who are near-sighted that "nature intends them to see poorly" rather than giving them eyeglasses or corrective surgery? Doctors "interfere" with the course of nature all the time, so his attitude is just ludicrous.
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Old January 23 2013, 06:12 PM   #156
BillJ
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

sonak wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Instead, we got a fake dilemma based on pseudoscientific nonsense by writers that love to throw around the word "evolution" but don't have the science knowledge of a bright high school junior.
Actually the science presented in the episode is consistent with that shown in other episodes.

The episode The Chase put forward that much of the intelligent life in the galaxy was designed to occur. By a early species (sometimes) called the Progenitors.

Phlox might not have known the whole story, but he did seem to understand that intelligent life doesn't just happen (in the Star Trek universe) naturally, but is "preprogrammed' to be the result of the development of certain humanoid lifeforms.

Random selection plays no part.

Phlox's decisions are based upon his knowledge of how things are, observation of other species. Again, Phlox might not have all the pieces, but he does know that evolution of intelligence is something that is predetermined and built into a beings genetic structure. In his examination of the second species (I forget their name) Phlox might have seen the genetic markers of a future highly intelligent species, more so than with the first species.


well, we don't get an indication that Phlox seems to think that there's an intelligence behind the genetic disease, just that it's "evolutionarily determined" or something. Again, I don't have a problem with Star Trek's pseudoscience in most cases, but I DO have a problem with it when it's getting uncomfortably close to the "biological racism/social darwinism" of the 19th century, and when it's being used to justify ethically monstrous decisions, like in "dear doctor." Further, Phlox' ideology is simply inconsistent with being a doctor. Why doesn't he just tell people who are near-sighted that "nature intends them to see poorly" rather than giving them eyeglasses or corrective surgery? Doctors "interfere" with the course of nature all the time, so his attitude is just ludicrous.
All I know, is that the five Xindi races didn't seem to have any issues evolving alongside each other.
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Old January 24 2013, 02:22 AM   #157
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

BillJ wrote: View Post
All I know, is that the five Xindi races didn't seem to have any issues evolving alongside each other.
That's debatable. They were at war with each other. A war that resulted in the destruction of their homeworld and extinction of the sixth Xindi species.
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Old March 7 2013, 12:48 AM   #158
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

DS9: Children of Time.

Odo pulled something really selfish, although given that the situation was already effed up to begin with and the writers needed a way to get them out of there...yeah, what Odo did was so messed up.
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Old March 7 2013, 01:54 AM   #159
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

"Through the Looking Glass".

Sisko has sex with Mirror-Dax while pretending to be Mirror-Sisko. That's rape by deception, IMO.
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Old March 7 2013, 02:57 AM   #160
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

If they wanted to do an episode about the formation of the Prime Directive they should have done one where Archer intervenes on a planet because it seemed like a good idea at the time and a couple of episodes later the decision completely backfires with negative repercussions not only for the planet in question but for Earth as well.

If I was going to Modify "Dear Doctor" to fit this criteria. I'd have the planet in a strategically valuable for Earth, but Earth can't use it because it's occupied. Being nice guys Archer and Phlox give them the cure for the disease. However, they don't get it quite right so about a month later it turns out they have created a even more virulent plague that wipes out both species completely. The planet is now free for Earth to use as they see fit. All the other local powers think Earth committed genocide on purpose. That would cause the formation on a stringent Prime Directive very quickly.
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Old March 7 2013, 03:37 AM   #161
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

yousirname wrote: View Post
"Through the Looking Glass".

Sisko has sex with Mirror-Dax while pretending to be Mirror-Sisko. That's rape by deception, IMO.
Based on the realistic documentary that is James Bond, spies are completely forced into this, bending over backwards to serve queen and country by getting their end away, all in aid of not blowing their cover and ensuring the mission isn't compromised.
There's no pleasure in it, there aren't any double-entendres to be made, just professional, mission accomplishing sex.

Sisko had to completely become his mirror self, because a man who turned down an offer of sex would be immediately suspicious.

Besides, it was the Mirror Universe, it doesn't seem like Jadzia had too much of a problem with, one slap was enough to give him a message the next time she saw him.

Benjamin must've been goooooooood.....
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Old March 7 2013, 03:51 AM   #162
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

I don't understand why it was so essential that Dax not know Mirror-Sisko was dead. The rebels generally, sure, but Dax specifically, not so much.

It doesn't overly bother me, because, y'know, it's fiction. But still. It's a little creepy.
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Old March 7 2013, 06:21 AM   #163
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
. . . There was also that one with Zefram Cochrane where they determined the entity was female by its 'feminine' behavior patterns, to which Cochrane was horrified. That was just plain stupid.
In "Metamorphosis," no one knew the Companion was female -- or, indeed, that it had any gender at all -- until the universal translator gave it a feminine voice. That UT must be a pretty powerful device, to recognize sex characteristics in a non-corporeal entity!

When he realized the nature of the Companion's feeling for him, Cochrane became horrified and disgusted by the thing's "alien-ness," for lack of a better term. Which I agree seemed stupid. I mean, the entity is just a cloud. It's not like it was some slimy buglike creature with tentacles.
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Old March 7 2013, 09:03 AM   #164
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

One of the Prophets entering a woman's body, taking her free will, making her marrying a man, having sex with him to have a baby... That was just simple wrong and no one ever addressed it in the show. Ugh...
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Old March 7 2013, 02:16 PM   #165
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

"Cogenitor" I recently watched this episode and did a search on the BBS to see reviews. My mind was pretty much blown by the high praise this episode recieved. The whole premise of this episode was so ill conceived to me.

I'm watching Trip sneek around with the cogenitor playing games in his quarters and showing her old sci-fi movies while teaching her to read when he can. I was just thinking how Trip could be so dense. I mean, just how exactly did he see all of this playing out? What realistic endgame did he think would be possible? Was he really placing the asylum of the Cogenitor ahead of what appears to be a succesfull first contact with a peaceful race? I also have a hard time buying that we would actually care enough to go through all of that.

Apparently the Archer speech at the end solidified this episode as an "A +" episode but it had absolutely no continuity. Trip was essentially AWOL during "Regeneration" and "The Expanse" opens up with Trip and Archer buddy buddy again. There was absolutely no punishment whatsoever except for his conscience.
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