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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 10 2014, 01:30 PM   #46
Mytran
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Spock says later that he had begun to have doubts in the Briefing Room.
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Old July 10 2014, 05:00 PM   #47
TheAdmiralty
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Despite being somewhat sympathetic, the salt monster was still a murderer. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to hunt it down so it couldn't hurt anyone else. You could argue that it was unwise or not the best option, but I wouldn't call it immoral.
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Old July 10 2014, 05:17 PM   #48
Robert Comsol
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
Are you saying that Spock knew he had spoken with the creature, not with McCoy? I didn't read the episode that way.
No, after he had been attacked by the fake McCoy (the Salt Vampire) he must have realized that it was the Salt Vampire they had been talking to in the briefing room.

Apparently, the creature was intelligent, yet demonstrated erratic / alien behaviour.

And yes, it had killed several crewmen, somehow unable to feed itself otherwise, but I wonder if that merited the execution the Salt Vampire got at the end.

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Old July 11 2014, 11:42 PM   #49
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Just give the damn thing salt and it'll stop killing. It was acting in self defense, while literally starving. The Horta gets forgiven, why not ol Salty? Now why it didn't impersonate a chef and walk into the galley . . .?

Many of the above posted examples, by the way do not seem unethical to me. Kidnapping violates Pike's autonomy, but autonomy serves happiness and Spock is acting to give Pike even greater happiness through imagined autonomy. I have no problem with this.

The Decker thing? Illegal, sure. Saving 431 lives by ditching Capt Queeg? Highly ethical. It would be unethical not to.

OP, I would concur with the Salt Vampire example.
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Old July 12 2014, 07:56 AM   #50
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

BillJ wrote: View Post
This is non-sense. Sulu was a botanist in Where No Man... and others knew of his interest in botany from The Man Trap.
Actually Sulu was some sort of astrophysicist in WNMHGB. He had only two lines in that episode, the first of which is "Astro sciences standing by, Captain."

Sulu's "hobby of the week" was originally supposed to be a kind of running gag, but the idea was quickly dropped.
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Old July 12 2014, 01:20 PM   #51
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Although earlier in TOS Spock seemed to urge Kirk to pursue the Romulans until death and McCoy to kill the Salt Vampire, generally in the rest of the series Spock advised against killing as much as possible.
I think in some cases such as in Arena the pursuit of the enemy went against Spock's Vulcan ethics but of course he had to comply with Kirk's orders because he had agreed to work for Starfleet.
Thats not to say that Kirk had no ethics but he went the bloody nose way - show the enemy that you're strong so they won't mess with you again.

I also believe that the seduction of the Romulan Commander would have been an ethical dilemma for Spock too. Not that she was an innocent party.

In Menagerie he risked everything for a former captain but I don't think it was an ethical dilemma. Spock's life and career were at risk. No-one elses.

I think that Spock was highly unethical in Methuselah though but he probably didn't think so. I think he though removing Kirk's memory was for the greater good. But I really can't imagine that Kirk could be that heartbroken after knowing a girl for less than a day.

Spock's most unethical action IMO was the mind-meld on Valeris. And all for nothing.
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Old July 12 2014, 01:26 PM   #52
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

scotpens wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
This is non-sense. Sulu was a botanist in Where No Man... and others knew of his interest in botany from The Man Trap.
Actually Sulu was some sort of astrophysicist in WNMHGB. He had only two lines in that episode, the first of which is "Astro sciences standing by, Captain."

Sulu's "hobby of the week" was originally supposed to be a kind of running gag, but the idea was quickly dropped.
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Old July 13 2014, 09:58 PM   #53
TheAdmiralty
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

plynch wrote: View Post
The Horta gets forgiven, why not ol Salty?
The Horta was different because it was actually protecting its eggs against aggression from the miners, which it has the right to do, even if the miners don't know what the eggs are. The salt monster was taking the lives of "bystanders" just to save its own, which I would call unethical.

Now why it didn't impersonate a chef and walk into the galley . . .?
That would have simplified the episode quite a bit, but I don't think we ever saw a chef on TOS.
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Old July 13 2014, 10:52 PM   #54
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

TheAdmiralty wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
The Horta gets forgiven, why not ol Salty?
The Horta was different because it was actually protecting its eggs against aggression from the miners, which it has the right to do, even if the miners don't know what the eggs are. The salt monster was taking the lives of "bystanders" just to save its own, which I would call unethical.

Now why it didn't impersonate a chef and walk into the galley . . .?
That would have simplified the episode quite a bit, but I don't think we ever saw a chef on TOS.
But we heard one.

CHARLIE X wrote:
CHEF [OC]: Captain Kirk from ship's Galley.
KIRK: Kirk here.
CHEF [OC]: Sir, I put meat loaf in the ovens. There's turkeys in there now. Real turkeys.
KIRK: Chef, have you been
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Old July 14 2014, 04:13 AM   #55
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
TheAdmiralty wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
The Horta gets forgiven, why not ol Salty?
The Horta was different because it was actually protecting its eggs against aggression from the miners, which it has the right to do, even if the miners don't know what the eggs are. The salt monster was taking the lives of "bystanders" just to save its own, which I would call unethical.



That would have simplified the episode quite a bit, but I don't think we ever saw a chef on TOS.
But we heard one.

CHARLIE X wrote:
CHEF [OC]: Captain Kirk from ship's Galley.
KIRK: Kirk here.
CHEF [OC]: Sir, I put meat loaf in the ovens. There's turkeys in there now. Real turkeys.
KIRK: Chef, have you been
And the part of Chef was voiced by Gene Roddenberry, if I'm not mistaken.
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Old July 14 2014, 04:30 AM   #56
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Trek woulda taken a different tack had ol' Salty eaten the Great Bird for supper.
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Old July 17 2014, 02:47 PM   #57
Robert Comsol
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
But I really can't imagine that Kirk could be that heartbroken after knowing a girl for less than a day.
Nor can I, especially since this girl was an artificial person (like the Minuet holodeck character Riker was attracted to in TNG. At least he wasn’t heartbroken at the end).

Strangely, each time the mind meld scene pops up in my mind, I falsely recall it as the aftermath of “The Paradise Syndrome”. At least there, Kirk spent a considerable amount of time with Miramanee to experience a genuine feeling of loss, IMHO.

TheAdmiralty wrote: View Post
That would have simplified the episode quite a bit, but I don't think we ever saw a chef on TOS.
Actually we did see a chef in „Charlie X“, although it was just his back.

Bob
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Old July 17 2014, 03:43 PM   #58
Vandervecken
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

A beaker full of death wrote: View Post
I think a lot of the examples cited here are instances of Spock breaking regulations, which is not at all the same thing as acting unethically (except, importantly, to the extent they violate his oath as a Starfleet officer).
The instance that comes immediately to mind is The Enterprise Incident (where he totally seduces the Romulan commander Kirk-style).
And lies like a champ.






--------------

How about ditching Leila Kalomi in "This Side or Paradise." Sure, we can say they were under the influence of the spores, but there clearly was something there between them. Leila didn't even seem to want to be "freed." I'm pretty sure that, even when both were free of the spores, she would have wanted him to stay with her. So Spock had to hurt her (and himself) pretty badly to essentially stay true to his Starfleet oath (ie, not desert). That's a dilemma, I'd say.
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Old July 17 2014, 05:25 PM   #59
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Actually we did see a chef in „Charlie X“, although it was just his back.

Bob
Was that GRs back? Just curious.
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Old July 18 2014, 06:42 AM   #60
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
In Menagerie he risked everything for a former captain but I don't think it was an ethical dilemma. Spock's life and career were at risk. No-one elses.
Not true. Everyone else's was. The whole crew was violating General Order 4; and the captain was responsible.

Mutiny not an ethical dilemma?
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