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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old January 22 2013, 04:27 AM   #31
Warped9
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
More broadly, I don't see anything in "Enterprise Incident" that hurt the integrity of the Spock character. What are you referring to?
Neither do I. Spock was under orders to get the damned cloaking device.

We can assume Starfleet might already have tried more secretive espionage ways to get the device and finally came up with this idea. It was a risky move because it could have gone wrong in so many ways. Indeed, the Romulan Commander tossing herself into the transporter beam might well have forestalled the Romulans declaring war. They not only lost a highly valued bit of hardware but also an experienced command officer---doesn't look too good for them particularly if it got out to their Klingon "allies." I could even see Starfleet "letting" it leak to the Klingons just to foster more distrust between the empires.
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Old January 22 2013, 04:30 AM   #32
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I'd add in The Doomsday Machine. Without medical tests Spock really had no legal right to relieve Decker.
That's not really a situation of an ethical dilemma for Spock, because Kirk resolved the situation for him. Spock had no legal right to relieve Decker, and he DIDN'T relieve Decker, until Kirk manufactured a quasi-legal imperative for him. When Kirk ordered Spock to relieve Decker, it took Spock off the hook. Kirk assumed the responsibility. You could call that an ethical dilemma for Kirk, but not for Spock. (Of course Kirk didn't perceive it as a dilemma at all; it was instantly clear to him what the right course of action was.)

Spock's ethical dilemma was earlier, as he tried to stay within the letter of regulations while keeping Decker from getting the ship destroyed. Spock handles that with integrity; but it's Kirk who grasps the nettle.

Kirk's order to Spock is a genius moment of writing, I think. It crystallizes a key difference between Kirk and Spock: why Kirk is in command, and Spock is the best first officer in the fleet. Kirk assesses the situation correctly, and fabricates a non-existent prerogative to issue an order so Spock can do what needs to be done.
Completly splitting hairs here but based on my gut feeling after reading "The Caine Mutiny", Spock would not quite be off the hook, especially when Decker said, "IIIII don't recognize your authority to relieve me!"

So in other words, my speculation based off a fictional event as applied to a completly different fictional universe with its own set of rules is that Spock would also stand trial if it ever got that far and Decker wanted to proceed.
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Old January 22 2013, 02:05 PM   #33
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Spock even states Decker may file a formal protest assuming they reached a starbase. I think Kirk and Spock were both on tenuous ground in relieving Decker.
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Old January 22 2013, 07:04 PM   #34
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Completly splitting hairs here but based on my gut feeling after reading "The Caine Mutiny", Spock would not quite be off the hook, especially when Decker said, "IIIII don't recognize your authority to relieve me!"
So in other words, my speculation based off a fictional event as applied to a completly different fictional universe with its own set of rules is that Spock would also stand trial if it ever got that far and Decker wanted to proceed.
Oh I completely agree with you guys, if Decker had made it back to Starbase with the rest of them, Kirk and Spock would have been up on charges. I meant only that after Kirk issued the order, Spock was off the hook for the decision to act. He wasn't off the hook legally; I should have said he was off the horns of the dilemma. Kirk made the decision for him.

One of the most awesome moments in all of TOS.
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Old January 22 2013, 07:18 PM   #35
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

The Doomsday Machine was an idiotic situation. Decker isn't an Enterprise officer. Spock should have told Decker to bugger off from the start and just had McCoy and security haul him off to sickbay. The Star Fleet order used in that situation was the kind of TV order made to create drama. Star Trek and Hollywood often portray scenes with rank outweighing the chain of command.
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Old January 22 2013, 07:36 PM   #36
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Yet another, among many, examples of why military realism/verisimilitude and Star Trek should not be conflated, in any iteration of the franchise (still makes for a great scene, though).
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Old January 22 2013, 08:24 PM   #37
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Ovation wrote: View Post
Yet another, among many, examples of why military realism/verisimilitude and Star Trek should not be conflated, in any iteration of the franchise (still makes for a great scene, though).
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Old January 23 2013, 08:34 AM   #38
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
More broadly, I don't see anything in Enterprise Incident that hurt the integrity of the Spock character. What are you referring to?
His seduction of the Romulan commander as a military strategem was hardly honorable.
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Old January 23 2013, 08:48 AM   #39
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

A beaker full of death wrote: View Post
JimZipCode wrote: View Post
More broadly, I don't see anything in Enterprise Incident that hurt the integrity of the Spock character. What are you referring to?
His seduction of the Romulan commander as a military strategem was hardly honorable.
And upon 1000's of repeat viewings, ultimately hurts the integrity and credibility of the the established character over time.
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Old January 23 2013, 08:54 AM   #40
Gov Kodos
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

Of course, she was just an easily led woman, what else could you expect?
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Old January 23 2013, 01:09 PM   #41
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Re: Spock Ethical Dilemmas

A beaker full of death wrote: View Post
JimZipCode wrote: View Post
More broadly, I don't see anything in Enterprise Incident that hurt the integrity of the Spock character. What are you referring to?
His seduction of the Romulan commander as a military strategem was hardly honorable.
Whenever I watch it what I see is her doing the come on big time and Spock just letting her believe what she wants.
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