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Old November 15 2013, 04:06 PM   #151
Santa Horrible
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

Just about to watch it, I'll get back to you after I do.

ETA: So just watched it, one of the best episodes yet. I so enjoy Johnny Lee Miller in this. His impassioned speech about needing his support system, his evolution because of Watson, the Captain and Detective Bell was very powerful.

Now to get to what you inferred, a very interesting turn with Mycroft. I hope it's not as sinister as implied but I guess we'll see. I have really enjoyed Rhys Ifan and hope these developments means we'll see him more.
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Old November 16 2013, 01:10 AM   #152
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

Tom Hendricks wrote: View Post
Now to get to what you inferred, a very interesting turn with Mycroft. I hope it's not as sinister as implied but I guess we'll see. I have really enjoyed Rhys Ifan and hope these developments means we'll see him more.
Here's what I wrote about that on Facebook and a Sherlock Holmes mailing list this morning:

A quick thought on last night's ELEMENTARY. Specifically, the final scene with Mycroft.

I really like Rhys Ifans. I think he has great rapport with Johnny Lee Miller. I have no problem buying them as brothers.

But he hasn't struck me as Mycroft. Until last night. And, specifically, the final scene, alone in The Diogenes.

For those not playing at home, ELEMENTARY'S Mycroft is a restaurateur and a leukemia survivor. He had come to New York City to bond with his brother, with whom he's had a terrible relationship, and open a new restaurant, The Diogenes. Neither of these struck me as "right"; I felt that ELEMENTARY was, in this case, trying too hard to differentiate itself from SHERLOCK, and what we ended up with was a character with the same name but none of the same attributes as the Canon Mycroft.

In the episode, Mycroft delivered a message to Sherlock from their father (who hasn't been named, but I'll call Siger because of William S. Baring-Gould) -- Siger expected Sherlock to return to London, and he was in danger of being cut off if he didn't.

Sherlock hems and haws throughout the episode, and interestingly we get an explanation for why ELEMENTARY's Sherlock has focused exclusively on murders; he turns down ordinary cases so he can work with the NYPD. (This addressed one of my long-standing problems with ELEMENTARY; the Canon Holmes took all sorts of cases because they engaged him, from missing persons to purloined papers, and murder was only one small part of that.) In the end, he gives Mycroft a letter for Siger that lays out why he intends to remain in New York, whatever the cost.

In the final scene with Mycroft (which may be the final scene of the episode, come to think of it), we see Mycroft alone, in The Diogenes. He takes the sealed letter out of his jacket. He looks at it. He tears it up. (Which had me yell at my television, "No, Mycroft! How could you?")

And then he calls someone.

They have a conversation. It seems that it's not Siger that wants Sherlock to come home after all. Rather, Mycroft is working with someone to either 1) get Sherlock out of New York or 2) get Sherlock back to London. And since this attempt to pry Sherlock out of New York failed, there will be others.

Now, the way I immediately read this scene was, "Oh, damn, Mycroft is working with the season's Big Bad. Or possibly Moriarty." Which would be interesting; I like Natalie Dormer's interpretation of Moriarty.

But then I said, "No. Just no. No Evil Mycroft! No Evil Mycroft!"

Then I realized that was the point. I think we're supposed to think the former -- Mycroft is working with nefarious persons to get Sherlock to London -- and I've no doubt that when he reappears (February sweeps, no doubt) we'll see something happen that makes us question Mycroft's loyalties. But there's no basis at all for Evil Mycroft in the Canon. Instead, I remembered that Mycroft has been playing a subtle game with Sherlock, to get Sherlock to do something he doesn't ordinarily want to do but would if coached in the right way. This time, the coaching didn't work.

And this sold me on Rhys Ifans' Mycroft.

This is who I think Mycroft is. He's working for MI-6, his chain of restaurants around the world give him reasons to travel, and he's trying to get a valuable asset back to the UK that he can use very unofficially. It's important to remember the dinner conversation, where Mycroft mentions that Sherlock would have gone back to working with Scotland Yard. This would put Sherlock in a position to work on cases that have bearing on Mycroft's (deep undercover) work. After all, who looks for a spymaster in a restaurant?

I know, I'm theorizing well in advance of the evidence and that invariably biases the result. I know that I'm out if we get Evil Mycroft, because that's a change too far from the Canon. I know that I want ELEMENTARY's Mycroft to be more like his Canon counterpart, and thus I'm twisting what little we know to make that fit.

I want to be right.
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Old November 16 2013, 01:39 AM   #153
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

I like your theory, Allyn.
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Old November 16 2013, 01:40 AM   #154
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^^^Ditto. Also, if Mycroft was acting from base motives, talking Daddy into cutting Sherlock off for real probably wouldn't be too hard, would it?
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Old November 16 2013, 02:40 AM   #155
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Two things:

1) We know from a text message we saw last season that Daddy Holmes's first initial is M.

2) Several episodes have featured Holmes taking on cases that weren't initially homicides, such as a kidnapping and an impossible heist, and he's also taken on cases for people other than the police, like when he was hired to track down the guy who leaked the government secrets. However, all those cases eventually ended up involving homicides in one way or another.
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Old November 16 2013, 02:49 AM   #156
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

Christopher wrote: View Post
1) We know from a text message we saw last season that Daddy Holmes's first initial is M.
Honestly, I was aware of that. In the absence of a known name, though, I'm falling back on old habits, hence Siger.

Christopher wrote: View Post
2) Several episodes have featured Holmes taking on cases that weren't initially homicides, such as a kidnapping and an impossible heist, and he's also taken on cases for people other than the police, like when he was hired to track down the guy who leaked the government secrets. However, all those cases eventually ended up involving homicides in one way or another.
All true. It seems at times that the non-homicide crime gets short shrift in Elementary. I want to see Holmes track down lost kittens! I want to see Holmes bust up a secret society of mimes!

Okay, I meant that last one as a joke, but now that I think about it, that sounds awesome.

The former, by the way, is something Holmes did in a radio play Dorothy Sayers wrote starring her Lord Peter Wimsey. As a child, Lord Peter lost his kitten, and he hired Sherlock Holmes to find it. So I guess Holmes is canonical to Lord Peter.
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Old November 16 2013, 05:47 PM   #157
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

Keep in mind that I write from the perspective of someone who has had very little experience with Sherlock Holmes stories in the past and knows next to nothing about the canon Mycroft.

In Elementary, I haven't liked Mycroft as a character, mostly because he's kind of boring and he just gets in the way of the Holmes and Watson relationship. And I'm not picking up on any chemistry at ALL between him and Watson, so it's strange to think that there's some sort of sexual attraction there.

After this past episode, I am liking Mycroft more. He just got interesting! I hope that he IS evil, I think that would be awesome. The phone conversation could have meant so many things, but what I initially took away from it, especially due to the comment that Sherlock hasn't seen or spoken to his father in years, was that Mycroft was planning to murder their father, or in fact already had (and had been acting as him when hiring Watson/sending messages). Thinking back on the scene later, this is just one of many possibilities and it might not even be the best one, but for some reason that was the first idea that struck me.

Also, when Mycroft tore up the letter, I detected a hint of jealousy in his facial expression. A sort of mix of anger, envy, and disgust. Which makes me think that Mycroft would be very unhappy about the idea of Sherlock having a better relationship with their father. And that he possibly hates their father enough to kill him.

Perhaps he wanted to lure Sherlock to London to frame him for the murder?
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Old November 16 2013, 06:19 PM   #158
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

Spot's Meow wrote: View Post
Keep in mind that I write from the perspective of someone who has had very little experience with Sherlock Holmes stories in the past and knows next to nothing about the canon Mycroft.
In the Canon, Mycroft is Sherlock's older brother (by seven years, I believe). He is a corpulent man who essentially lives (and sometimes works) at the Diogenes Club in Pall Mall. He's described as a minor government clerk, but he's shown to be far more important to the Empire than mere clerk. He is smarter and more observant than Sherlock; unfortunately, he's also lazy and only goes out to travel between the Diogenes and his office. The world is burning down if Mycroft goes somewhere, anywhere else.

There's some question about whether or not Mycroft is Nero Wolfe's father, but that has no bearing here.

With that description, you can see why I haven't been drawn to Elementary's Mycroft. He's not a public servant. He travels. He's not observant, and he seems outclassed mentally by Sherlock.

And, yes, I know I'm trying to fit Ifans' Mycroft into a Canon-shaped mold that he may not be suited for. The only thing I ask is that he not be evil. I don't know that I could handle that.
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Old November 16 2013, 08:22 PM   #159
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

It occurs to me that in some ways, this version of Sherlock Holmes was more like the original in the past but has now grown beyond it -- he used to be a consulting detective in London and dabbled in drug use, but then the drugs got out of hand and now he's gone through rehab and started a new life and has reformed some of his old ways, at least to an extent. Mycroft seems to be portrayed similarly -- he used to be fat and lazy, according to Sherlock, but now he's remade himself. So these Holmes brothers are like an evolution beyond the canonical ones, in a sense. So the characteristics they had in the canon inform them without limiting them.
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Old November 17 2013, 12:22 PM   #160
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

So how many TV shows has William Sadler died on this month?
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Old November 17 2013, 05:29 PM   #161
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^Well, he is the Reaper, so it's appropriate.
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Old November 18 2013, 05:48 AM   #162
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My theory is Mycroft does work for the government and the government need Sherlock for some reason.
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Old November 18 2013, 09:46 AM   #163
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Aragorn wrote: View Post
So how many TV shows has William Sadler died on this month?
He seems to die in every show he guest stars in.
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Old November 18 2013, 03:02 PM   #164
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Re: ELEMENTARY - News, Reviews, and Discussion

It was fun to see Margaret Colin in the episode. She played Jane Watson in "The Return of Sherlock Holmes" TV movie back in the 80s (which is silly but really enjoyable).
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Old November 18 2013, 03:13 PM   #165
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^Oh, that's right! I think I remember that movie now.
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