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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 13 2013, 07:04 PM   #91
YARN
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

BillJ wrote: View Post
At the end of the day, it's fiction. Each individual story is going to use the elements needed to tell the story the writer wants to tell.

We can go to every single Star Trek story and go "why didn't they do this? It was done in episode 'x'!"
This is true. And the narrative rot sets in all the way back in TOS. How many game changing technologies, tricks, and potions did they just simply leave on the table, never to be discussed again?

And this is why, in my personal opinion, if Orci really wanted to put Trek in a more realistic universe, the last film should have been a hard reboot.

But it wasn't a hard reboot. And the destruction of Vulcan is not a run-of-the-mill tragedy or set back. It certainly would not be for Spock, for whom the event was emotionally compromising. Ditto for other Vulcans. For Spock, this is like Earth being destroyed and he has (positive evidence on record) intervened in time to save Earth in the past. When the stakes are high enough and/or when there is interference in a timeline, Spock has been willing to hit the reset button. In this case, the stakes are high and Nero has altered the course of events.

It is not, therefore, a silly question, but a rather natural one. Why wouldn't Spock act to correct his mistake, his failure to save Vulcan?
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Old January 13 2013, 07:05 PM   #92
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Because it's a fucking. Movie.

Ugh.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:08 PM   #93
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
At the end of the day, it's fiction. Each individual story is going to use the elements needed to tell the story the writer wants to tell.

We can go to every single Star Trek story and go "why didn't they do this? It was done in episode 'x'!"
This is true. And the narrative rot sets in all the way back in TOS. How many game changing technologies, tricks, and potions did they just simply leave on the table, never to be discussed again?

And this is why, in my personal opinion, if Orci really wanted to put Trek in a more realistic universe, the last film should have been a hard reboot.

But it wasn't a hard reboot. And the destruction of Vulcan is not a run-of-the-mill tragedy or set back. It certainly would not be for Spock, for whom the event was emotionally compromising. Ditto for other Vulcans. For Spock, this is like Earth being destroyed and he has (positive evidence on record) intervened in time to save Earth in the past. When the stakes are high enough and/or when there is interference in a timeline, Spock has been willing to hit the reset button. In this case, the stakes are high and Nero has altered the course of events.

It is not, therefore, a silly question, but a rather natural one. Why wouldn't Spock act to correct his mistake, his failure to save Vulcan?
I just chalk it up to Spock not wanting to destroy a younger version of himself.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:10 PM   #94
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

BillJ wrote: View Post

I just chalk it up to Spock not wanting to destroy a younger version of himself.
How?
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Old January 13 2013, 07:13 PM   #95
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

I just chalk it up to Spock not wanting to destroy a younger version of himself.
How?
If he resets the timeline, then he essentially destroys the younger Spock that developed in the new timeline.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:15 PM   #96
YARN
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

BillJ wrote: View Post
If he resets the timeline, then he essentially destroys the younger Spock that developed in the new timeline.
Well, he wouldn't be destroying his younger self. Young Spock was not really impacted by the loss of the Kelvin.

At any rate, Spock could make a minimal intervention move by simply preventing Nero from destroying Vulcan and leaving Kirk as more "Fonzi-fied" if he wishes.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:16 PM   #97
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
...And this is why, in my personal opinion, if Orci really wanted to put Trek in a more realistic universe, the last film should have been a hard reboot....
Did they really want to put Trek in a more realistic universe, or simply create an updated version of the familiar Trek Universe in which their characters can play?
Was it updated for 21st century audiences? yeah. However, I don't think that necessarily means "more realistic".

...And for the record, I would have been OK with a hard reboot -- but still within the framework of what we come to know as an updated version of the good ol' Trek Universe.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:19 PM   #98
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
If he resets the timeline, then he essentially destroys the younger Spock that developed in the new timeline.
Well, he wouldn't be destroying his younger self. Young Spock was not really impacted by the loss of the Kelvin.

At any rate, Spock could make a minimal intervention move by simply preventing Nero from destroying Vulcan and leaving Kirk as more "Fonzi-fied" if he wishes.
If Vulcan isn't destroyed, Kirk gets drummed out of the service for cheating on the Kobayashi Maru, the Doomsday Machine eats the Rigel colonies, the Space Amoeba continues to grow, V'ger wipes out Earth and so on and so on.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:19 PM   #99
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Why does a hard reboot equal a more realistic universe?
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Old January 13 2013, 07:21 PM   #100
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Why does a hard reboot equal a more realistic universe?
Not more realistic but easier to tell the story without fans going "why?"

Like what we are seeing here...
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Old January 13 2013, 07:25 PM   #101
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Why does a hard reboot equal a more realistic universe?
Orci is claiming that he wishes to leave behind the past for a more realistic fiction in which there are no GRANDFATHER PARADOXES. He wants a more realistic Trek. Connecting old Trek to new via the overlap of universes and the causal connection of people hopping from one universe to another undermines this avowed intention.

A hard reboot does not necessarily mean a more realistic universe. A soft reboot, however, involves swirling an unrealistic old universe into your new universe.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:27 PM   #102
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Why does a hard reboot equal a more realistic universe?
Orci is claiming that he wishes to leave behind the past for a more realistic fiction in which there are no GRANDFATHER PARADOXES. He wants a more realistic Trek. Connecting old Trek to new via the overlap of universes and the causal connection of people hopping from one universe to another undermines this avowed intention.

A hard reboot does not necessarily mean a more realistic universe. A soft reboot, however, involves swirling an unrealistic old universe into your new universe.
He just wants to use a different piece of science.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:33 PM   #103
YARN
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
YARN wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Why does a hard reboot equal a more realistic universe?
Orci is claiming that he wishes to leave behind the past for a more realistic fiction in which there are no GRANDFATHER PARADOXES. He wants a more realistic Trek. Connecting old Trek to new via the overlap of universes and the causal connection of people hopping from one universe to another undermines this avowed intention.

A hard reboot does not necessarily mean a more realistic universe. A soft reboot, however, involves swirling an unrealistic old universe into your new universe.
He just wants to use a different piece of science.
And that avowed intention would be better served by a hard reboot. Instead, he's mixed his peanut butter with his chocolate and we now have a Trek universe with closed-loop and branching time travel. Since closed-loop time travel is still available, so remains the problem of causal paradoxes, and so is the option fixing the past (as Old Spock has done in his past). And with that option comes the question, which I have asked.

It is just a question. It is not a gotcha which undoes nu-Trek. It does not amount to a claim that nu-Trek is an "epic fail." It is simply a coherentist test of the narrative with which we've been presented. Is this an odd detail or isn't it?
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Old January 13 2013, 07:34 PM   #104
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Why does a hard reboot equal a more realistic universe?
Orci is claiming that he wishes to leave behind the past for a more realistic fiction in which there are no GRANDFATHER PARADOXES. He wants a more realistic Trek. Connecting old Trek to new via the overlap of universes and the causal connection of people hopping from one universe to another undermines this avowed intention.

A hard reboot does not necessarily mean a more realistic universe. A soft reboot, however, involves swirling an unrealistic old universe into your new universe.
I think you are reading too much into what Orci, Kurtzman, or Abrams say in an attempt to catch them at some sort of inconsistency of thought, rather than simply watching the product as presented on the screen.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:34 PM   #105
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote:
Is this an odd detail or isn't it?
In the context of Star Trek? No.
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