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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 11 2013, 04:33 PM   #16
Chemahkuu
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

How? is everyone forgetting that the Narada can simply mop the floor with the best ships any race in this timeline has?

Because it was made very clear in the film, what with the blowing 50+ ships away without effort.

The only way to take her out is using the Red Matter, going back and getting between the Narada and Old Spock as he arrives, which is deadly enough as it is.
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Old January 11 2013, 04:35 PM   #17
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
How? is everyone forgetting that the Narada can simply mop the floor with the best ships any race in this timeline has?

Because it was made very clear in the film, what with the blowing 50+ ships away without effort.

The only way to take her out is using the Red Matter, going back and getting between the Narada and Old Spock as he arrives, which is deadly enough as it is.
Are you forgetting that they figured out how to beat the Narada and her crew before it destroyed Earth?

Spock now has the blueprint of a successful assault on that ship.
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Old January 11 2013, 04:38 PM   #18
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

They destroyed it using the Red Matter, it was only because the ship was being torn apart by a massive black hole that it was stopped.

Without that, the shields around the Narade make all Starfleet weapons useless. And the Jellyfish is gone, stealing the one as it arrives (apart from creating two Old Spocks) means you'd have the Red Matter anyway.
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Old January 11 2013, 04:39 PM   #19
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Ovation wrote: View Post
When it comes to time travel stories (in any context, not just Trek), I've found it's best to simply enjoy them (if they're entertaining) and ignore all the implications. Otherwise, it just sucks the enjoyment out of the story.

It used to bother me (in my adolescent days) when time travel was used inconsistently within a particular "universe" (comics, movies, TV series, whatever) and when implications like some mentioned in this thread were ignored. Now, not so much. Probably because, over the years (adolescence was a long time ago for me), I've become accustomed to seeking immediate enjoyment from pop culture (any extra "thinking" it provokes is a bonus, not a requirement) and looking to other things for actual thought provoking discussion or contemplation. YMMV
I hear what your saying. But as college professor, if you had a student writer who insisted on writing about the same subject - over, and over and over - and used the same narratives to solve plot problems in his/her short stories you wouldn't eventually tell that student to get some new source material?

Time travel is even more overused than the Borg as a plot device in all of Trek - and that's saying a lot.
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Old January 11 2013, 05:06 PM   #20
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
With regard to risk, we're talking about the entire freaking planet, so risk seems acceptable.
One world versus the entire 130+ planet United Federation of Planets? I'm sure they would have something to say about being put at risk like that!
This nuTrek timeline has shown that people who are meant to be born are not only born, but have the job assignments they should have!
I don't remember a Starfleet Lieutenant Carol Marus serving on the Enterprise in The Original Series. I also remember a Yeoman Janice Rand in TOS. Spock aside, Pike's launch crew was also totally different to that of his Prime-Trek equivalent. Chekov is seen in engineering wearing red in the Into Darkness trailers. Things are similar, but not the same.

People who would still be shacking up and having kids if Spock intervened, so the those numbers wash out. What doesn't divide out are the billions of missing Vulcans.
But what about the future? With knowledge of future events, Romulus or at least their population may survive the supernova in 2387. Undo the events of STXI, and history's just gonna repeat itself.
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Old January 11 2013, 05:17 PM   #21
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

The temporal prime directive would seem to oblige Spock to restore the timeline, which in effect is to stop the Narada from doing anything. I never liked that it never was brought up in the 09 film.
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Old January 11 2013, 05:18 PM   #22
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
This nuTrek timeline has shown that people who are meant to be born are not only born, but have the job assignments they should have!
Meh.

I just need to look to Mirror Mirror or Yesterday's Enterprise to see the crew all (or at least mostly) coming together in a totally different timeline/alternate reality.

The logical side of me asks:
"How could this be? How did all of these Mirror Universe people all come together to be on the Enterprise -- AND Mirror Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhura just so happen to be beaming up from the Halken's planet AT THE EXACT MOMENT our heroes were?"

But then the part of me who just wants to enjoy some soft sci-fi entertainment tells that logical side of me:
"Shut up -- I'm trying to watch."



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Old January 11 2013, 05:31 PM   #23
ROBE
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Doctor Who series came up with the Fixed Point in Time excuse.
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Old January 11 2013, 05:33 PM   #24
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Guys..guys...

He wouldn't save Vulcan by going back. He would just be creating a NEW timeline. Prime Vulcan would still be around. NuVulcan would be dead and NuNuVulcan would be saved.

I'm assuming these are the new time travel rules since Prime Vulcan is around.

edit: Now granted, Spock may not be aware of these new rules...how could anyone? Unless there are some differences he may have discovered.
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Old January 11 2013, 05:45 PM   #25
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
edit: Now granted, Spock may not be aware of these new rules...how could anyone?..
Even (and especially) if Spock watched all of Star Trek TV and films. The rules of time travel and alternate universes have always been all over the place.

I simply go with the specific rules/explanation being provided in the specific story I am watching at the time.
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Old January 11 2013, 05:47 PM   #26
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Marten wrote: View Post
The temporal prime directive would seem to oblige Spock to restore the timeline, which in effect is to stop the Narada from doing anything. I never liked that it never was brought up in the 09 film.
The intent of the movie was to reboot the franchise so that just was not going to happen.
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Old January 11 2013, 06:49 PM   #27
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Agreed ^ and a major change the reboot accomplished is changing the way Time Travel works in Star Trek.

It has rebooted the single timeline staple of Trek TT with many worlds theory which means any attempt to TT will result in the traveler switching timelines just as Nero, his crew and Spock did. Any attempt to "go back and repair" something in a travelers timeline of origin will only screw up (alter) things in a new, innocent timeline.

For the purpose of this topic we have to understand, (and accept) a fundamental change in the way "Spock" thinks after coming through the blackhole. He longer thinks of TT in the same way many fans still do; the single timeline. "Going Back and changing the past" is no longer how he understands Trek TT science. His way of thinking has been converted (rebooted) to align with Many Worlds Theory and therefore he now knows any attempt to TT will not achieve the desired goals in the timeline he now occupies. His best option, to avoid screwing with other timelines, is to make the best of his current situation.

I believe this to be one of the Paradigm Shifts they intended to achieve in Star Trek. All the above is, of course, my opinion.
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Old January 11 2013, 08:27 PM   #28
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Because it would be dramatically stupid.

That hasn't always prevented the Trek folks from doing a thing, but let's be grateful every time they decline to do so.
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Old January 11 2013, 09:36 PM   #29
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

The Keeper wrote: View Post
Agreed ^ and a major change the reboot accomplished is changing the way Time Travel works in Star Trek.

It has rebooted the single timeline staple of Trek TT with many worlds theory which means any attempt to TT will result in the traveler switching timelines just as Nero, his crew and Spock did. Any attempt to "go back and repair" something in a travelers timeline of origin will only screw up (alter) things in a new, innocent timeline.

For the purpose of this topic we have to understand, (and accept) a fundamental change in the way "Spock" thinks after coming through the blackhole. He longer thinks of TT in the same way many fans still do; the single timeline. "Going Back and changing the past" is no longer how he understands Trek TT science. His way of thinking has been converted (rebooted) to align with Many Worlds Theory and therefore he now knows any attempt to TT will not achieve the desired goals in the timeline he now occupies. His best option, to avoid screwing with other timelines, is to make the best of his current situation.

I believe this to be one of the Paradigm Shifts they intended to achieve in Star Trek. All the above is, of course, my opinion.
Yep.

Orci and Kurtzman pretty much said the same thing years ago. This is a new way of looking at time travel for Trek. It's also more theoretically acceptable these days than most of the other ways Trek looked at time travel.

In this way of thinking, if Spock "went back in time" to save Vulcan from being destroyed, he may well succeed, but restores nothing in the timeline he came from. Instead, he just creates a new timeline where he lives with an intact Vulcan. Vulcan in the timeline he came from is still destroyed.

It's the same reasoning for how Spock Prime "going back" in time in ST09 changed nothing about the future from that point on in his old timeline.

At Delta Vega, Kirk simply wasn't technically correct when he challenged Spock Prime about going back in time and "changing history" and "cheating." Spock Prime even more or less joked about that to Spock at the end of the movie when he said he let Kirk infer certain "universe ending paradoxes" would occur if Kirk divulged that Spock Prime existed. They won't. Spock Prime belongs in that universe just as much as Spock does.

There is no "in-universe" reset button.
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Old January 11 2013, 09:37 PM   #30
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Because it would be dramatically stupid.

That hasn't always prevented the Trek folks from doing a thing, but let's be grateful every time they decline to do so.
Exactly. It's akin to the crap they pulled at the end of DS9 - Having the Defiant destroyed was a hugely dramatic moment...and then the next episode introduces the new Defiant, an identical ship to the first solely so they could re-use all the stock footage of a battle from a previous episode for the finale, and the characters didn't even bat an eye about the loss of the old ship. Intensely dramatic moment gone in one week. Fail.

Why would they have Vulcan destroyed just so that Old Spock can go do some "simple" calculations and bring it back into existence? It would be a cop-out, just like every single other tired reset button in Trek.
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