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Old January 9 2013, 02:32 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: Crew members and their roles

He's a social scientist and as such would have been wearing a blue uniform pre-command.
Picard was an archaeologist, a thespian and an endurance runner, equestrian and occasional fencer by onscreen description. The only indication that he had command training came from the fact that he wore a red uniform and commanded starships. Chakotay should be no different a case... Seeing him in starship command should not be a dramatic surprise, as his introductory shot in "Caretaker" had him in starship command, and the renaissance man background then follows by precedent.

unless they REALLY had it in the back of their head he was forth in command of Voyager
There's a good reason for Janeway to emphasize such a thing: Tom is basically the most senior of the non-Maquis aboard, after the CO herself and Tuvok. Perhaps not the most trustworthy of the lot, but the most senior nevertheless. And he owes his rank, position and indeed personal freedom to Janeway in a very special way.

Except that there are other Starfleet senior lieutenants there, and Tom gets bumped down to junior after the first season. But not that many, and not in red.

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Old January 9 2013, 03:39 PM   #17
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Re: Crew members and their roles

There's a difference, Chakotay MAJORED in Anthropology. Picard took some class presumably to fulfill graduation requirements but took a liking to the topic.

We have every reason to believe Picard took the shortest route to command, which in the Star Trek world generally seems to be taking that route through the Conn position. We know he has an extensive pilot background that might even rival Riker's and maybe even Tom's.
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Old January 9 2013, 04:19 PM   #18
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Re: Crew members and their roles

The idea that Janeway was just going on a short mission and didn't bother to get a science officer doesn't fly with me.
I mean, they were going to the Badlands, which is a mess of plasma storms and gravitational anomalies.
Seems like it would be a great idea to have even a temporary science officer.
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Old January 9 2013, 04:59 PM   #19
Timo
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Re: Crew members and their roles

There's a difference, Chakotay MAJORED in Anthropology. Picard took some class presumably to fulfill graduation requirements but took a liking to the topic.
We don't know quite that much about Picard's background. He could hold doctorates on a number of subjects; such detail on our hero characters is typically missing, and Chakotay really is a rare exception in the level of exposure he gets.

Also, Picard wears blue all right in the alternate timeline of "Tapestry", but on what merit, we aren't told. Chakotay might have ended up like that in different circumstances, but we have seen versatility and command qualifications in blueshirts often enough, including good old Spock, and supposedly Janeway herself. Even Crusher eventually got a clear-cut Command job and a red shirt.

We have every reason to believe Picard took the shortest route to command, which in the Star Trek world generally seems to be taking that route through the Conn position. We know he has an extensive pilot background that might even rival Riker's and maybe even Tom's.
Does he now? He personally pilots the ship twice, in "Booby Trap" and "In Theory" (once onboard, once using a pilot boat), but attributes this to issues of responsibility rather than skill both times.

Picard's past remains a mystery to us. But what we know of his "direct path" seems to be even more direct than what you are suggesting: he wears Command white right after graduation in "Tapestry" already, rather than the yellow most commonly associated with Helm duties in that era, or the grey that sometimes competes with it. Although we do have one example of a white Helm officer, too, namely Lt. Castillo from "Yesterday's Enterprise"; perhaps Starfleet practices changed in the early 24th century?

The idea that Janeway was just going on a short mission and didn't bother to get a science officer doesn't fly with me.
A person fluent in sciences, yes. But once that one bites the dust in "Caretaker", a comprehensive science staff might be the thing missing from her crew complement, so no real replacement would be available for the deceased.

Note that several officers at or above the rank of Janeway's XO were listed as dead in "Imperfection". It would be odd to have those in roles where they could take over from Cavit in emergencies, so placing them in positions such as Chief Medical Officer, Chief Engineer and Chief Science Officer would seem prudent. But we have three such officers listed, and after one LtCmdr has been allocated as the CMO we saw, the further LtCmdr and the one Cmdr are still available, suggesting that a CSO indeed was aboard. Or can we invent further "staff" positions that would not compete with Cavit?

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Old January 9 2013, 05:26 PM   #20
MacLeod
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Re: Crew members and their roles

^I guess there where just unlucky to lose

The First Officer
Chief Medical Officer
Chief Engineer
Chief Helm
Chief Science Officer (if onboard)
and perhaps Chief Operations (though it is possible Kim was Chief from the start)

A lot of bad luck, that seemingly aside from Janeway every department head onboard the ship was wiped out.
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Old January 9 2013, 05:40 PM   #21
Ho Ho Homeier
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Re: Crew members and their roles

As Janeway had a science background, maybe the producers figured she would assume the role of science officer when needed. She frequently took an active part in scientific investigations. It might account for Genevieve Bujold's insisting she wanted to play a scientist rather than a commander, based on what she'd been told about the character.
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Old January 9 2013, 05:50 PM   #22
Timo
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Re: Crew members and their roles

Good point. It seems Kirk didn't need a separate Science Officer because his XO performed the duty; Janeway being both CO and SO doesn't appear out of line with that. Was Riker a slacker for only holding a single job? Was Picard his own SO?

Chief of Helm probably wouldn't have been among the mysterious high-rankers, or competition with Cavit would have been an issue. If Lieutenant Stadi held that position, then Tom inheriting it becomes rather logical. Also, a department head at the bridge during the Maquis hunt is sensible as well.

Chief of Ops would probably hold lower rank than Cavit, too, because Ops folks appear cross-trained and command-qualified elsewhere and would have offered unwelcome competition again. A Lieutenant in command of the Ops department would make a lot of sense, though, and Kim inheriting his or her position is IMHO a bit more attractive an idea than Janeway having such a junior (really, basically fresh out of the Academy) officer as a department head.

OTOH, the Ops Chief might not have been as crucially needed on the bridge during the Maquis hunt; he or she might only have been awakened for the actual intercept (and thus essentially ended up dying in his or her sleep), whereas the top Conn officer would be constantly needed while navigating through the Badlands.

What other departments should we consider? Janeway mentions that there are thirteen of them reporting to Tuvok, in "Scientific Method". Which would warrant the sort of chiefs that could explain away the high-rank casualties but wouldn't compete with Cavit?

To confuse matters, "Good Shepherd" has an Okudagram mentioning a couple of categories coinciding with the known names of Divisions: say, Command and Engineering. Each of these encompasses things we know to be Departments: say, Ops, Conn and Tactical are listed under the Command title. But the list of sub-categories can't be the list of the thirteen Departments aboard the hero ship, as there are in fact 21 sub-categories listed! And that's for just three Divisions, while dialogue elsewhere speaks of several other Divisions.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star...d_shepherd.jpg

Perhaps Tuvok has 13 out of 29 department heads report daily, as Janeway says, while others only report once in a blue moon?

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Old January 9 2013, 05:57 PM   #23
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Re: Crew members and their roles

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
There's a difference, Chakotay MAJORED in Anthropology. Picard took some class presumably to fulfill graduation requirements but took a liking to the topic.

We have every reason to believe Picard took the shortest route to command, which in the Star Trek world generally seems to be taking that route through the Conn position. We know he has an extensive pilot background that might even rival Riker's and maybe even Tom's.
Chakotay appearently majored in something more than Anthropology. This is from Memory Alpha.

Chakotay possessed great piloting skills and during his first year he trained as a pilot in North America. He then went to Venus for a couple of months to learn how to handle atmospheric storms and later dodged asteroids for a semester in the Sol system asteroid belt. (VOY: "Future's End, Part II")

He resigned from his position as an instructor in Starfleet's Advanced Tactical Training and sometime later joined the Maquis. (VOY: "In the Flesh")
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chakotay

I know I read an article some time ago in the now defunct Star Trek Magazine about Chakotay's bad luck with shuttles (and yes it's not a good record) but the worse record belongs to Tuvok and he didn't even have to be piloting, all he had to do was be along for the ride to have the shuttle crash.
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Old January 9 2013, 06:40 PM   #24
tighr
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Re: Crew members and their roles

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Harry is effectively the quartermaster.
^ Wow Guy, Ive gone 5 seasons not knowing what Harry's actual function on VOY. Thanks.
Yeah, Guy was pulling your leg. He tends to do that. Make no mistake: Harry was Operations Officer Department Head from the moment he stepped foot on Voyager.

Timo wrote: View Post
We don't know quite that much about Picard's background. He could hold doctorates on a number of subjects; such detail on our hero characters is typically missing, and Chakotay really is a rare exception in the level of exposure he gets.
Actually, we do. We know that Picard was the Conn on Stargazer when he took command for the first time six years out of the Academy. We also know that he developed the Picard Maneuver in response to the attack by the Ferengi. Those two instances, plus the numerous times we've seen him pilot both the Enterprise itself and shuttles with proficiency show that he is a more than capable pilot, probably moreso than your typical Starfleet Officer.

Timo wrote: View Post
Perhaps Tuvok has 13 out of 29 department heads report daily, as Janeway says, while others only report once in a blue moon?
I think that again is a mistake for Voyager, because there are only 150 people on board in the first place. That is way too many department heads for only 150 people. You can't have practically everyone being a department head, the vast majority of your crew is enlisted or Ensign level.

Either way, we see "Senior Staff" meetings all the time, which typically consist of our core characters. Those are your "Department Heads", and they filter down Janeway's wishes to their subordinates. Any members of the "Junior Staff" (like Ensign Jenkins, for example) would not attend Senior Staff meetings. Tom Paris, as Department Head, would instead give orders to Ensign Jenkins.
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Old January 9 2013, 07:08 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: Crew members and their roles

Make no mistake: Harry was Operations Officer Department Head from the moment he stepped foot on Voyager.
There's no dialogue to the effect that Kim would have been the Chief of Ops when coming aboard. Ops officer, yes, but not department head.

We know that Picard was the Conn on Stargazer when he took command for the first time six years out of the Academy.
No, we don't. No episode makes any reference to the position or rank Picard held when taking command of the ship, nor do we learn when this might have taken place.

You can't have practically everyone being a department head
Why should a department need more than ten employees?

Either way, we see "Senior Staff" meetings all the time, which typically consist of our core characters. Those are your "Department Heads"
Well, Picard often gathered meetings where the CMO, the Chief Engineer or other such key figures were missing. Apparently, he relied on somebody present (say, his XO) to relay the decisions, orders and other results to the absent department heads.

It's not as if Janeway ever said she would regularly meet the thirteen, either. She said Tuvok would. For all we know, a big part of Worf's work was to receive daily reports from the 42 department heads of the E-D.

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Old January 9 2013, 07:41 PM   #26
Lynx
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Re: Crew members and their roles

Some interesting points here. I'll give you my theories about it:

1. Chakotay had commanding experience. According to Jeri Taylor's book "Pathways" he was Lieutenant Commander and second in command on the ship Gettysburg before leaving Starfleet. He was also Janeway's Number One on Voyager. So it was logical with him in charge when the Captain was on some away mission. Maybe it had been more logical to send him on away missions more than he was but Janeway would gladly take part in those missions herself and Chakotay wasn't like Riker who didn't like the idea of the Captain taking such risks.

2. Paris had showed early on that he was a reliable force on away missions and since he obviously liked to stick his head in dangerous situations, he might also be a logical choice.

3. B'Elanna had such skills as an Engineer which even Carey couldn't match despise his Starfleet education, therefore she was given the job. I do find this a sympathetic move from Janeway, to give a real talent with such skills the job. There might also have been some other aspects here. B'Elanna was regarded as a troublemaker. A troublemaker with talent but still a troublemaker. By giving her responsibility, she found it easier to adapt to the Starfleet life. Besides that, it was also a signal to the Maquis on the ship that anyone could contribute and get an important job.

4. Kim had some skills when it came to computers and engineering besides his job at ops. It might also have been a way to make "young Ensign Kim" feel important and be apart of his development as a Starfleet officer.
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Old January 9 2013, 11:02 PM   #27
Guy Gardener
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Re: Crew members and their roles

Picards route to command... His Captain died while the ship was in a fire fight, the rest of the crew panicked, but he stood up, threw a corpse out of his seat which god said he deserved, and saved the day. Starfleet was so impressed that they let him keep the ship.

Picard was 27 years old.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Stargazer

From Memory Alpha about Operations officers...

On board starships, the role of the operations officer evolved from older 23rd century positions, such as involving some functions of the helmsman (although the bulk of duties that the helmsman and navigator were traditionally assigned to were filled by the flight controller). As well as manning the ops station (as such, overseeing internal systems control, communications and sensor system usages), ops personnel also coordinated the scheduling of resources, hardware and system usage for an entire starship, outpost or space station.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Operations_officer

I repeat, Kim did the job of a quartermaster even if that wasn't his title.

Of course, "personal" items for crew are handled by replicators, so it's not like he's counting blankets, and making sure that crew doesn't get new boots until the old ones are worn out, although he would have been the bean counter keeping track of everyones replicator rationing and if he wasn't so square he might have considered cooking the books.
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Old January 9 2013, 11:19 PM   #28
Lighthammer
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Re: Crew members and their roles

Timo --- it's really hard having a conversation with you (or with you in the threads sometimes) because you always get into arguments over what information you will and won't accept.

There's plenty of information out there written from the writers you just don't take into account and weather you PERSONALLY don't like use it, you should at least be open to OTHERS who do.

Can you please drop the holier then thou attitude. It's getting really tiresome.

In contrast Guy Gardner, you measure up to your namesake. Weather I agree with you or not, I almost always enjoy reading your comments.


Brit wrote: View Post
He resigned from his position as an instructor in Starfleet's Advanced Tactical Training and sometime later joined the Maquis. (VOY: "In the Flesh")

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chakotay

I know I read an article some time ago in the now defunct Star Trek Magazine about Chakotay's bad luck with shuttles (and yes it's not a good record) but the worse record belongs to Tuvok and he didn't even have to be piloting, all he had to do was be along for the ride to have the shuttle crash.
In the TNG episode, they mentioned Ro Laren's instructor was Chakotay. I had wondered if that was a throw out to Voyager's Chakotay, Adrmial Chakotay (no relationship) or someone else. Chakotay, for whatever reason, seemed like a "go to" name more often then it should have.

If it was in fact Voyager's Chakotay (did we ever get a first or last name for him, I never saw it mentioned anywhere), I think the series could have made a point to connect that. If that was the case, things start to magically fit for him.


Brit wrote: View Post
I repeat, Kim did the job of a quartermaster even if that wasn't his title.

Of course, "personal" items for crew are handled by replicators, so it's not like he's counting blankets, and making sure that crew doesn't get new boots until the old ones are worn out, although he would have been the bean counter keeping track of everyone replicator rationing and if he wasn't so square he might have considered cooking the books.
You know, I think Kim would have done the job of janitor if it got high accolades from Janeway, lol.
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Old January 10 2013, 12:13 AM   #29
Lance
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Re: Crew members and their roles

Re: Harry's lack of promotion: I always assumed it was a red tape issue. Maybe Janeway has got the authority to issue "field promotions", but maybe not. Maybe there has to be forms signed in triplicate from Starfleet Command. IIRC Tuvok got bumped up to Lt Cmdr from Lieutenant, but this could have been something which was always on the cards, even before they all got trapped in the Delta Quadrant.
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Old January 10 2013, 12:54 AM   #30
tighr
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Re: Crew members and their roles

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
In the TNG episode, they mentioned Ro Laren's instructor was Chakotay. I had wondered if that was a throw out to Voyager's Chakotay, Adrmial Chakotay (no relationship) or someone else. Chakotay, for whatever reason, seemed like a "go to" name more often then it should have.

If it was in fact Voyager's Chakotay (did we ever get a first or last name for him, I never saw it mentioned anywhere), I think the series could have made a point to connect that. If that was the case, things start to magically fit for him.
The "Academy Lt." who was her instructor in Advanced Tactical Training was never formally identified as Chakotay. This was the original idea, but they decided against it on Voyager when dealing with Chakotay's backstory. The actual name of the instructor was never mentioned on screen. Chakotay's stated date of resignation on Voyager is a couple of years before Ro would have been at the Academy, anyway.

Likewise, Tom Paris was supposed to be Nicholas Lacarno, but it actually makes sense that they didn't go that route since Lacarno was an asshat and would have been a much different character than what Paris turned out to be.
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