My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

[AllStarEntprise]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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It's kind of dickish to only use your discreet population moving ship only if you get something out of it.

^ speaking of wasn't there some treaty that forbade the Fed from using cloaked technology? But in INS they are openly using it. Was the Federation council just operating without it's rule book or principles during INS, or did Michael Piller forget this was TNG and there are rules?

[DonIago]

I'd hardly say they were "openly" using it under the circumstances.

I suspect the Federation Council knew enough to approve the generalities of the operation but was unaware of the specifics. Somewhat like ItPM.

[T'Girl]

The Federation did not have to remove the Baku to get at the rings.

Given that the Baku were on the Federation's planet on a extended camping trip, and originally got there be warp driven ship, it's hard to see the Federation objecting to taking them to safety.

However, if the Federation had no interest in the Baku's safety, they would have simply left them where they were when the ring was harvested. Letting the Baku "naturally" die from the heat.

[CorporalClegg]

So American Natives came to the continent on an extended camping trip? Nice.

Let I suggest their camping trip started before either the Fed or Starfleet. Kind of the whole point.

[BillJ]

CorporalClegg wrote:

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So American Natives came to the continent on an extended camping trip? Nice.

Let I suggest their camping trip started before either the Fed or Starfleet. Kind of the whole point.

But if the territory belonged to another power then was ceded to the Federation under the terms of a treaty, the Ba'ku are still squatting on a planet that belongs to someone.

[CorporalClegg]

But if pioneering discovery is your basis for sovereignty, then it's likely it's the the Ba'ku's planet.

We have no idea when the Rommis or Klinks stumbled upon Klach D'Kel Brakt, but it's not crazy to think it was after 2066. If both races are supposedly on a similar technical evolutionary trajectory as humans, we have to figure they were still, cosmically, infantile. This was only three years after Cochrane's flight, after all. Also, all non-canon references depict KDB as being some considerable distance from either Romulus or Qo'Nos.

The only other events we have to go by are the Augment coup was wasn't until almost a century later and the conflict which was in 2271.

[T'Girl]

CorporalClegg wrote:

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We have no idea when the Rommis or Klinks stumbled upon Klach D'Kel Brakt

Nor do we know how many other parties possessed the planet and the region prior to it being the Romulan's territory. That particular area of the galaxy could have been trading hands for hundreds of thousands of years, as various major interstellar powers rose and fell from existence.

Did the civilization that the Baku originally came from claim the region at some point? There no canon indication of such. Given their numbers and lack of resources to do so, the Baku would seem to be incapable of doing so themselves. They certainly could not control the area.

At no point during the movie did the Baku ever claim (or suggest) that the planet was theirs.

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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wasn't there some treaty that forbade the Fed from using cloaked technology?

The holo-ship could have been the Sona's property, and not the Federation's. The Federation interacts with the Klingons, who have cloaking technology, without violating the treaty with the Romulans.

Commander Riker was briefly in command of a Klingon ship (with a cloaking device), no treaty violation.

[Hartzilla2007]

T'Girl wrote:

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The holo-ship could have been the Sona's property, and not the Federation's.

I'm pretty sure Data said it was a federation ship, hell the control room looked like it had federation style LCARS controls.

[MacLeod]

Did the Ba'ku really need to say they calimed the planet?

They settled on it prior to the founding of the Federation.

So when the Federation found it, it was aready inhabiated by a seemingly non-warp culture as such the PD would apply at it would be ignored.

The situation is similair to an episode of TNG where Worf's adoptive brother was to transplant a group of people to save them. A clear violation of the PD. In INS they want to move a group of people to get at something, still a violation of the PD.

It seems clear from the movie that the council wasn't told the full story, and as soon as they had been updated they reveresed their earlier ruling.

[CorporalClegg]

MacLeod wrote:

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Did the Ba'ku really need to say they calimed the planet?

No.

[DonIago]

MacLeod wrote:

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It seems clear from the movie that the council wasn't told the full story, and as soon as they had been updated they reveresed their earlier ruling.

IIRC the movie ends before it's made clear what the council's decision will ultimately be.

[T'Girl]

MacLeod wrote:

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Did the Ba'ku really need to say they calimed the planet?

Yes, it certainly would have helped their position. Not that I think i would have made much difference in the end.

It's not clear if the Baku even thought of the planet as theirs.

They settled on it prior to the founding of the Federation.

And?

... seemingly non-warp culture ...

Which wasn't the case. The Baku might not have possessed a warp driven ship at the time of the movie. But they were a warp tech culture. How else could the Baku have forced the Sona off the planet? How else could they have migrated there from their "birth world?"

The situation is similair to an episode of TNG where Worf's adoptive brother ...

It is much more like the episode Ensigns of Command. Where a group of people settled on someone else's planet, and needed to be removed for their own safety.

In INS they want to move a group of people to get at something ...

Once again, it wasn't necessary to remove the Baku to harvest the rings. The Baku were to be remove so the harvesting process would not harm them. But their removal wasn't essential.

it was a humanitarian move.

It seems clear from the movie that the council wasn't told the full story ...

How so? What didn't the Council know that was relevant?

The Council already knew it was a Federation planet.

The Council already knew the Sona have the tech to preform the harvest.

The Council already knew the rings will provide health benefits to many billions.

The Council already knew a warp capable group of migrants were on the world.

The relationship between the Baku and the Sona is a side issue. The health benefits are still there, the planet is still a Federation planet.

[CorporalClegg]

T'Girl wrote:

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It's not clear if the Baku even thought of the planet as theirs.

They just called it "home" because they're quirky.

And?

And see: Palatine and Israel.

It is much more like the episode Ensigns of Command.

No it's not.

it was a humanitarian move.

In what twisted world is kidnapping "humane"?

The humane thing would have been to turn around and go home.

You're essentially trying to excuse a large force's persecution, subjugation and displacement of a smaller one to gain access to a natural resource. As a society, we don't do that. As a matter of fact, we tend to condemn it.

Trying to justify it by invoking some bastardized interpretation of the Bentham Pannomion holds about as much water as a thimble. Utilitarianism has its place; implying one's claim to absolute power is more significant and essential to anther's by simple arithmetic is not it, especially under the guise of "health benefits."

[BillJ]

CorporalClegg wrote:

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You're essentially trying to excuse a large force's persecution, subjugation and displacement of a smaller one to gain access to a natural resource. As a society, we don't do that. As a matter of fact, we tend to condemn it.

Bullshit we don't. We do it all the freaking time and for stakes far less than the Fountain of Youth. You think that if six hundred people were sitting on a cure for cancer in Whogivesafuck, Pennsylvania and the only way to get to it was to burn their town to the ground, that we wouldn't do it?

The Ba'ku were damned lucky that their whitey paradise ended up inside the Federation border instead of inside the Romulan, Klingon or Cardassian border. Those powers would've simply extracted the radiation and left the Ba'ku to a miserable death.

[MacLeod]

T'Girl wrote:

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Yes, it certainly would have helped their position. Not that I think i would have made much difference in the end.

It's not clear if the Baku even thought of the planet as theirs.

And?

Which wasn't the case. The Baku might not have possessed a warp driven ship at the time of the movie. But they were a warp tech culture. How else could the Baku have forced the Sona off the planet? How else could they have migrated there from their "birth world?"


It is much more like the episode Ensigns of Command. Where a group of people settled on someone else's planet, and needed to be removed for their own safety.

Once again, it wasn't necessary to remove the Baku to harvest the rings. The Baku were to be remove so the harvesting process would not harm them. But their removal wasn't essential.

it was a humanitarian move.

How so? What didn't the Council know that was relevant?

The Council already knew it was a Federation planet.

The Council already knew the Sona have the tech to preform the harvest.

The Council already knew the rings will provide health benefits to many billions.

The Council already knew a warp capable group of migrants were on the world.

The relationship between the Baku and the Sona is a side issue. The health benefits are still there, the planet is still a Federation planet.

Have you not heard of Generational ships?

As the planet is inhabitated by a group of people who aren't members of the Federation it is NOT a Federation planet. No doubt there are plenty of inhabiated planets that fall within Federation space whose inhabitants aren't part of the Federation.

If they knew they were warp capable why the need for secrecy, why not just ask the Ba'ku to move?

Normally when the government wants the land you own, they have to compensate you. They don't go around stealing it.