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Old January 3 2013, 05:02 AM   #46
teya
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

Thanks for your gracious reply.

It's not really a matter of semantics, though. It's a matter of identity. Racial minorities have the right to self-identify.

I have a friend who has red hair & green eyes & she's just as Cherokee as her brown-eyed, black-haired sister.

We get patients in the ED from southern Mexico who speak no English or Spanish. They're not full-bloods, but it would be pretty hard to argue that they're not Indian when the only language they speak is Mayan...
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Old January 7 2013, 06:22 PM   #47
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

You'll have to forgive me if my memory is faulty, raising two small kids at my age can do that to you and it has been a while since I saw this series.

After a while Chakotay stopped mentioning spirits at all, he said God or my God quite a lot and not spirits as so many fan fics seem to write. Janeway was a woman of science who did not put much stock in formal religion it appears but she had her moments of faith in her own way. I don't think either ones faith was based on ethnicity but on the basic makeup of their character.

Chuckles character may have started out with good intentions at being written as Indian but the writers really didnít do their homework, which in the age of computers should have been a piece of cake, beyond the ďIndian for all seasons.Ē I am however immensely thankful they didnít go too much Hollywood and stick a full feathered headdress on him and have him do a lot of stoic ďUgg, shields at 30%, Captain Kemosabee...Ē I swear to CHRIST there couldnít have been that many damn feathers in the whole US for the amount of headdresses in the movies. Plus who the hell did any research on Crazy Horse? The guy never, ever, ever wore a headdress! Still not Voyager related so sorry for off topic rant.

I donít put much Indian in the Angry warrior tale either other than a man trying to tell a woman how he felt cloaked in story as to give them both an out. It was sweet but Iím gonna go with if he had pulled out a flute and played a courting song I might have been more impressed that they were at least trying. Letís see his quarters had some dťcor, he did sand paintings and he did some mystical head trip at times but that all got fewer and far between as the seasons went on. By the end viewers who would have just tuned in would not have even known he was Indian.

In short, they missed the boat, TNG did it a wee bit better and they could have built on that but they slipped up and didnít bother to correct it. In time neither did Chakotay, although he was at the mercy of the writers, and Beltran who may indeed have indigenous blood but really didnít have a say or didnít press,

And Teya, I took my two granddaughters to the Pow Wow and while the oldest jumped right in the circle to dance the little one was quite upset and proclaimed loudly she wasnít dancing because ďWhere are all the white Indians like me?Ē Now she doesnít mean white as in skin color she means white as in blonde hair. She is black eyed and very tanned but has beautiful golden blonde hair. Course at four itís hard to explain that Indians come in all shapes, sizes and colors and not everyone looks like her dad or sister. I laughed later after I got over the initial embarrassment but it was not an easy answer for her.
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Old January 7 2013, 06:45 PM   #48
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

I agree the character was squandered and this is unpardonable by the writers. However, since all the characters are stereotypical in one way or another, it seems a bit unfair to single one out.

As to the cultural convo going on here; just imagine how Scots feel about ST. She canny take it, Captin.
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Old January 7 2013, 07:12 PM   #49
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I agree the character was squandered and this is unpardonable by the writers. However, since all the characters are stereotypical in one way or another, it seems a bit unfair to single one out.

As to the cultural convo going on here; just imagine how Scots feel about ST. She canny take it, Captin.
True, true - don't even get me started on Fair Haven or that TNG episode were they pick up the "Irish". Good LORD did they use any brain cells to come up with those episodes?

If Chuckles is sterotypical of anything it was Voyager regulating him and a couple other male characters to background noise. They become nada other than "Shields up Captain." He kinda of became Voyager's answer to Sulu in my opinion.
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Old January 7 2013, 10:41 PM   #50
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

BORU wrote: View Post
I am however immensely thankful they didnít go too much Hollywood and stick a full feathered headdress on him and have him do a lot of stoic ďUgg, shields at 30%, Captain Kemosabee...Ē I swear to CHRIST there couldnít have been that many damn feathers in the whole US for the amount of headdresses in the movies.
A headdress is not simply a construction of Hollywood.

Here's Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (who is also a Cheyenne chief) introducing a bill on the floor of the Senate on the day the American Indian Museum was opened.



Last thing I need round these parts is yet another European patiently explaining my culture to me.

My nation also uses full headdresses as ceremonial wear.
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Old January 7 2013, 10:57 PM   #51
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

I spent some years pronouncing Cheyenne as Chenny because it was just a word in a book.
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Old January 8 2013, 01:32 AM   #52
teya
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

BORU wrote: View Post
After a while Chakotay stopped mentioning spirits at all, he said God or my God quite a lot and not spirits as so many fan fics seem to write.
That's a favorite in J/C fanfic. Haven't seen it used anywhere else, and he certainly never said it on the show. No idea why J/Cers started going with that. Perhaps they believe Indians don't worship gods.

Or something.

Chuckles character may have started out with good intentions at being written as Indian but the writers really didnít do their homework, which in the age of computers should have been a piece of cake, beyond the ďIndian for all seasons.Ē
The internet was not what it is now when Voyager first aired. Still, Jeri Taylor obviously went to maya.net, because the myth she told in "Pathways" was lifted word for word from that site. Plagiarism! St Jeri of Taylor!

However, if they wanted to go the Maya route, she didn't need to go online. There are thousands of Maya living in Los Angeles. They are our gardeners and maids and nannies. St Jeri of Taylor should speak to her hired help occasionally.

It was sweet but Iím gonna go with if he had pulled out a flute and played a courting song I might have been more impressed that they were at least trying.
I would've shot my TV.

I would've liked some drums.

Letís see his quarters had some dťcor, he did sand paintings and he did some mystical head trip at times but that all got fewer and far between as the seasons went on. He had a medicine wheel, he didn't clock Seven upside the head when she referred to the Great Spirit, he yammered on occasion about how Indians are so gentle to the land...
Plenty stereotypes there.

There were two things in the whole series that struck me as Indian.

1) In the pilot when Tom referred to some hokey Indian thing about Chakotay's life belonging to Tom, Chakotay said, "Wrong tribe."

2) He went out in a shuttlecraft for rituals. Everyone has his or her place in nature where they are most at home. Mine is at the top of a mountain in NY state. It makes sense that Chakotay's--drawn as he was to leave his home and join Starfleet--was in space.

Beltran who may indeed have indigenous blood but really didnít have a say or didnít press,
Beltran commented in an interview that TPTB had asked him about his own heritage. He pointed out that many Mexican-Americans--himself included--had no clue. He suggested Maya, but couldn't help further.

So St Jeri of Taylor went to mayanet. The rest is history.
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Old January 8 2013, 05:19 PM   #53
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

teya wrote: View Post
BORU wrote: View Post
I am however immensely thankful they didnít go too much Hollywood and stick a full feathered headdress on him and have him do a lot of stoic ďUgg, shields at 30%, Captain Kemosabee...Ē I swear to CHRIST there couldnít have been that many damn feathers in the whole US for the amount of headdresses in the movies.
A headdress is not simply a construction of Hollywood.

Here's Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (who is also a Cheyenne chief) introducing a bill on the floor of the Senate on the day the American Indian Museum was opened.



Last thing I need round these parts is yet another European patiently explaining my culture to me.

My nation also uses full headdresses as ceremonial wear.
I had the pleasure of hearing Sen. Campbellís speech on the Mall at the opening of the NMAI also the honor of touring the NMAI prior to it's opening, course it was the wee hours of the morning but it was something I'll never forget. I spent a week in awe of the history, the entertainment and the different people willing to share their oral history. It was a honor to be there not only as someone with Indian ancestry but as a American citizen.

And while Iím certain some ancestors did indeed arrive on these shores by way of Erin/England, a good portion were already here and had been for centuries therefore my family hasn't been European for quite some time.

My granddaughters are registered members of the Lumbee tribe, their fatherís doing not mine. I do not feel the need to prove their Cherokee and Pamunkey blood. I do not know my blood quantum and even if I did it would mean squat to me, I will go by family history, mostly oral as it wasnít really popular at the time to claim Indian blood. We are what we are, the sum of all that came before and Iím good with that.

In reference to the headdress, when it is overused in the media it takes away from the honor and history that should be the right of those who had the right to wear one. Not because some photographer thought it look good in the shot and would sell more newspapers or the cartoons artist thought it was funny or it looked good on film with it blowing in the wind. it wasn't factual nor is it cool for comic relief.

Back to topic at hand...

Personally I think Chuckles was more of a wind instrument kinda guy but given that he had to deal with Janeway, in his case I would have also been looking for something to bang and not in a good way. Bring on the drum therapy.
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Old January 8 2013, 05:23 PM   #54
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

teya wrote: View Post

Last thing I need round these parts is yet another European patiently explaining my culture to me.
Do you mean BORU?
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Old January 8 2013, 06:12 PM   #55
teya
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

Deckerd wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

Last thing I need round these parts is yet another European patiently explaining my culture to me.
Do you mean BORU?
No, I mean the folks from Europe who explain what a "Red Indian" is, what we look like (I never fit the stereotype, nor do most from my nation), how we're the most ecological & spiritual on the planet (cue New Age soundtrack), how the lack of a tribe isn't a problem for them because they're enlightened (unlike Indians who view their tribal identity as part of their individual identity).

Chakotay could have been an inspiration in much the way Uhura was in the 60s. But TPTB chose to make him an Indian recognizeable to white folks, but didn't really care if he was recognizeable as an Indian to Indians.
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Old January 8 2013, 06:16 PM   #56
teya
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

BORU wrote: View Post
And while Iím certain some ancestors did indeed arrive on these shores by way of Erin/England, a good portion were already here and had been for centuries therefore my family hasn't been European for quite some time.
Sorry I wasn't clear.

I wasn't referring to you, but to those who would jump on what you said and run with it, assuming that the headdress is a Hollywood construct only.
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Old January 9 2013, 11:45 PM   #57
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

Well i dunno if stereotypical is right...but he had decent character development not the most popular character anyway.

He was always gonna be second to Janeway because they needed a strong female capatain he was no gonna be expressive or as dominating as people thought.
but i think the fact that hes culture was ruined,the way they expressed it in the show was limited,but i wouldn't think an Indian episode would have made a difference.
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Old January 10 2013, 12:21 AM   #58
teya
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

jpch wrote: View Post
Well i dunno if stereotypical is right...but he had decent character development not the most popular character anyway.

He was always gonna be second to Janeway because they needed a strong female capatain he was no gonna be expressive or as dominating as people thought.
but i think the fact that hes culture was ruined,the way they expressed it in the show was limited,but i wouldn't think an Indian episode would have made a difference.
They had an "Indian episode." It was "Tattoo."

It was a disgusting New Age mess.
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Old January 10 2013, 12:25 AM   #59
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

teya wrote: View Post
jpch wrote: View Post
Well i dunno if stereotypical is right...but he had decent character development not the most popular character anyway.

He was always gonna be second to Janeway because they needed a strong female capatain he was no gonna be expressive or as dominating as people thought.
but i think the fact that hes culture was ruined,the way they expressed it in the show was limited,but i wouldn't think an Indian episode would have made a difference.
They had an "Indian episode." It was "Tattoo."

It was a disgusting New Age mess.
I never enjoyed that episode...
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Old January 10 2013, 05:48 PM   #60
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Re: Was Chakotay a stereotype?

teya wrote: View Post
BORU wrote: View Post
And while I’m certain some ancestors did indeed arrive on these shores by way of Erin/England, a good portion were already here and had been for centuries therefore my family hasn't been European for quite some time.
Sorry I wasn't clear.

I wasn't referring to you, but to those who would jump on what you said and run with it, assuming that the headdress is a Hollywood construct only.
This Creek/Cherokee gives Teya a high-five.

I recently saw "The Fight".... "Captain, permission to go on a vison quest." My eyes rolled right out of my head.

Though I have to admit, if Voyager had a Ferengi crewmember, and he said "Captain, permission to swindle the aliens out of their money." I would laugh.

Edit: If Chakotay were anything but an Indian, I would actually praise the production crew. I had no problem with Bajoran spirituality, even if they did try and hide it behind wormhole aliens.
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