RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,563
Posts: 5,402,201
Members: 24,864
Currently online: 643
Newest member: paddy00grenham

TrekToday headlines

October-November 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Cho Selfie TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

TPTB To Shatner: Shhh!
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27

Meyer: Revitalizing Star Trek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 26

Trek Costumes To Be Auctioned
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Hulu Snaps up Abrams-Produced Drama
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 29 2012, 11:03 AM   #16
Mage
Commodore
 
Mage's Avatar
 
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

Thanks for explination guys!! Helps a lot. Hopefully, I can get my hands on the entire series one day, but it's still cool to atleast know now.
__________________
Niner. Lurker. Browncoat.
Mage is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2012, 01:44 PM   #17
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

Claudia wrote: View Post
I'd love to learn more about this because how could Picard and the others agree to this?
I don't think they did.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2012, 03:10 PM   #18
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Claudia wrote: View Post
I'd love to learn more about this because how could Picard and the others agree to this?
I don't think they did.
Their agreement would be irrelevant. They have to follow the orders of their superior officers.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2012, 03:11 PM   #19
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Claudia wrote: View Post
I'd love to learn more about this because how could Picard and the others agree to this?
I don't think they did.
Their agreement would be irrelevant. They have to follow the orders of their superior officers.
Yeah, like that ever stopped the heroes to do the right thing.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2012, 05:37 PM   #20
Claudia
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Sector 001
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Claudia wrote: View Post
I'd love to learn more about this because how could Picard and the others agree to this?
I don't think they did.
Their agreement would be irrelevant. They have to follow the orders of their superior officers.
Sorry, but no one has to follow unethical orders - and this is one of them.

IMO chain of command has been used and abused too much because I don't think it prevents people from thinking about what they're doing. And as I said, no one else's emotions are simply removed just because they came to a wrong conclusion.

(And yes, I know I might stir up a wasp's nest with my opinion.)
__________________
"You're my superior officer. You are also my friend. I have been and always shall be yours." (Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan)
http://nicky2910.booklikes.com - updated 09/08/2014: Vanguard - #1 Harbinger by David Mack: 9/10
Claudia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2012, 07:17 PM   #21
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

Claudia wrote: View Post
Sorry, but no one has to follow unethical orders - and this is one of them.
Actually a lot of things that officers and soldiers do under orders are unethical -- spying on people, trespassing on private property, shooting people, dropping bombs on people, etc. Part of the reason there is a chain of command is because soldiers often have to do things that an ordinary person would be ethically opposed to doing voluntarily. It's illegal orders that one is obligated to disobey. You can't order a subordinate to commit a crime. But any lawful order must be obeyed, even if the person given the order disagrees with it.

And Federation law as it pertains to artificial life forms is still evolving. According to A Time to Be Born, Ch. 17 (p. 276 of the paperback edition), Admiral Nakamura was able to use the loophole that since Data's chip was added after he joined Starfleet, it could be considered add-on equipment, and regulations gave Starfleet the right to determine what equipment an officer used while on duty. Without any specific laws or regulations to the contrary, Nakamura's order, however unethical, was still lawful and thus had to be obeyed.

Now, one could question why the characters didn't mount a legal challenge as they did in "The Measure of a Man." But we need to keep in mind that what's at issue here is Data's right to choose. The legal challenge in TMoaM only happened because Data chose to resign rather than obey orders. It wasn't something Picard or Geordi made him do; it would be pretty hypocritical to fight for his right to choose by denying it to him. He chose to resign rather than submit to Maddox's experiment, and Maddox then issued a legal challenge to force Data to obey, leading to the hearing that determined Data's right to choose. But in this case, conversely, Data chose to obey Nakamura's order rather than fighting it. Why did he make the choice differently this time? Well, my story "Friends With the Sparrows" in The Sky's the Limit might help explain that. It shows Data learning that he doesn't need to depend on the chip to define him as a person, that he is who he is regardless of his emotional state. I wrote the story to justify why the later movies showed the chip becoming less and less a part of his life despite Generations treating it as a life-changing thing.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30 2012, 12:26 AM   #22
JWolf
Commodore
 
JWolf's Avatar
 
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

Mage wrote: View Post
Thanks for explination guys!! Helps a lot. Hopefully, I can get my hands on the entire series one day, but it's still cool to at least know now.
http://www.booksonboard.com/index.ph...pocket%20books

There's a link to the entire series.
__________________
Jon
JWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30 2012, 12:22 PM   #23
Claudia
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Sector 001
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

Christopher wrote: View Post
And Federation law as it pertains to artificial life forms is still evolving. According to A Time to Be Born, Ch. 17 (p. 276 of the paperback edition), Admiral Nakamura was able to use the loophole that since Data's chip was added after he joined Starfleet, it could be considered add-on equipment, and regulations gave Starfleet the right to determine what equipment an officer used while on duty. Without any specific laws or regulations to the contrary, Nakamura's order, however unethical, was still lawful and thus had to be obeyed.
First, thanks for providing further details, Christopher! As I said, I didn't read those novels, and now reading about the fact that Data was ordered to get his chip removed just bothered the hell out of me.

OTOH, shouldn't it have sufficed if Data just turned the chip off, like he did in FC? Or have some kind of subroutine installed that prevents him from using it during a mission? I'm not even talking about the fact that the definition of the emotion chip as some equipment like a tricorder doesn't sit well with me. Geordi's eyes, Picard's heart etc. don't fall under this definition, either, so why should the emotion chip?

Now, one could question why the characters didn't mount a legal challenge as they did in "The Measure of a Man." But we need to keep in mind that what's at issue here is Data's right to choose. [...]But in this case, conversely, Data chose to obey Nakamura's order rather than fighting it.
What I'd like to know is if there even had been a discussion, or if Geordi/Picard etc just accepted the order and Data's choice. It's one thing to accept Data's right to choose after a discussion, it's another to try to force their will onto him, after all. So, perhaps I really need to read this scene... If I just knew where I put that book...

Why did he make the choice differently this time? Well, my story "Friends With the Sparrows" in The Sky's the Limit might help explain that. It shows Data learning that he doesn't need to depend on the chip to define him as a person, that he is who he is regardless of his emotional state.
I never was a friend of the emotion chip. Actually it was his appeal that he was different, that he didn't have emotions. Once he got those he lost the thing that made him unique among the crew.

And even without the emotions the chip provided he grew as a character, there were lots of stories to tell simply *because* he didn't have emotions, such as f.e. "The Offspring". In that episode the lines blurred quite a bit. Even without the chip I couldn't really tell where programming and logical thought process ended and caring, nurturing and simple parental instinct began.

It would have been great if that had been explored more instead of focusing on plainly obvious emotion. Because if we are honest, emotion isn't much more than brain chemistry and hormones... it's just a different kind of programming, I guess. Okay, I'm getting philosophical, time to stop now. *g*
__________________
"You're my superior officer. You are also my friend. I have been and always shall be yours." (Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan)
http://nicky2910.booklikes.com - updated 09/08/2014: Vanguard - #1 Harbinger by David Mack: 9/10
Claudia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30 2012, 03:38 PM   #24
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What happened to Data's emotion chip?

^Exactly. That's why I hate the cliche "Robots don't have feelings, all they have is programming!" Emotions are programming. They're preset responses hardwired into our brains. We don't learn to feel or choose to feel, it happens automatically. An animal's emotions are pretty simple -- you're scared and you run, you're angry and you attack, you're horny and you mate. What makes human emotions complicated is their interaction with our thoughts, beliefs, and choices -- like the loyalties and commitments that make us choose to face danger when we're scared, or the cultural mores that keep us from sleeping with the wrong partner. So emotion is the easy part; intelligence is the really complicated part. It would be far easier to program a computer with emotion-like responses than it would be to make it sentient and capable of autonomous thought and choice. So the fictional conceit that emotion is some magic alchemy that's beyond the capacity of an intelligent machine is just silly.

Of course, it's not quite as bad in the case of Soong-type androids, since we've seen that models like Lore and Lal can have emotion, but it goes wrong, either leading to cascade failure or resulting in a psychopathic personality. So Soong left emotion out of Data on purpose as a stopgap, intending to restore it once he'd solved the problems, but never getting around to it because he had to flee the Crystalline Entity and abandon Data.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:17 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.