Anyone familiar with the BBC version of Sherlock Holmes? (spoilers)

[stj]

I agree that Sherlock isn't slash. The innuendo strikes me for that very reason as juvenile in a way that Downey/Law, which I think is slash, doesn't. To me, it seemed like very ugly, slovenly writing, one of the things that kept me from thinking Sherlock was brilliant.

I find I rather prefer a less superhuman Sherlock alongside a more admirable Watson. On those grounds too, I found the chemistry others see between Cumberbatch and Freeman distinctly lacking. Cumberbatch did a similar but much more appealing role in The Last Enemy, though, and maybe my memories of it made his Sherlock less appealing?

But maybe not? I don't believe sociopaths or psychopaths are at all appealing. (And the terms are synonyms, no matter what some of the applingly stupid dialogue would tell you.) I don't really believe this Sherlock gives a shit. It's remarkable how much that lessens the viewing experience.

[Allyn Gibson]

stj wrote:

---

I don't believe sociopaths or psychopaths are at all appealing. (And the terms are synonyms, no matter what some of the applingly stupid dialogue would tell you.) I don't really believe this Sherlock gives a shit. It's remarkable how much that lessens the viewing experience.

I see Cumberbatch's Sherlock as an extreme version of Doyle's character, one that has his empathy toned down and his narcissism ramped up. I don't see him as a sociopath, but neither do I see him as someone on the Asperger's spectrum, either. In terms of his relationship with others, I'd largely agree that he doesn't "give a shit." The puzzle is more interesting to him.

This is how I describe the difference between Cumberbatch's and Miller's characters. Cumberbatch is a Sherlock Holmes who hasn't looked into the abyss yet, he will eventually, and he'll get burned because of it. Miller has looked into the abyss, got burned, and he's a better integrated personality because of it.

[Guy Gardener]

Yet they're both in the "earlyish" stages of heroin recovery and are each using the solving of crime to distract themselves from the monkey on their back.

Classical Holmes only did cocaine because he was a wussy.

[MacLeod]

I prefer Sherlock to Elementay, that isn't to say I dislike it. But Given the choice between wathcing or the other I would pick the former.

[Dorian Thompson]

I see Cumberbatch's Sherlock as an extreme version of Doyle's character, one that has his empathy toned down and his narcissism ramped up. I don't see him as a sociopath, but neither do I see him as someone on the Asperger's spectrum, either. In terms of his relationship with others, I'd largely agree that he doesn't "give a shit." The puzzle is more interesting to him.

From my perspective I don't think his personality needs "approval" from others, he functions well enough without it, but he sure reacted positively when he found someone who actually likes him, ergo John. I remember that wan little smile of his when John said something positive to him in the cab in the pilot episode. For some reason it stood out to me--almost a child like happiness for just a moment. Someone actually liked him without resenting his abilities.

It's clear that Sherlock needs John in order to survive in a world where he has criminally insane masterminds like Moriarty after him threatening to burn his heart out. He definitely needs the reminder not to treat others like shit; like John said, every officer who Sherlock ever made feel like a tit was all too eager to believe the story Moriarty spun. The reporter he made feel like shit was all too eager to believe Moriarty's ridiculous story that he was an actor hired by Sherlock.

This is how I describe the difference between Cumberbatch's and Miller's characters. Cumberbatch is a Sherlock Holmes who hasn't looked into the abyss yet, he will eventually, and he'll get burned because of it. Miller has looked into the abyss, got burned, and he's a better integrated personality because of it.

Indeed. I may have to check out this Brett Miller Sherlock if I can ever get my hands on some episodes.

I don't believe sociopaths or psychopaths are at all appealing. (And the terms are synonyms, no matter what some of the applingly stupid dialogue would tell you.) I don't really believe this Sherlock gives a shit.

He must give a shit about something or the idea of John and Mrs. Hudson being gunned down wouldn't cause him so much pain. He wouldn't have gone out of his way to rescue Irene if he didn't care at least a little.

[teacake]

When I've watched Sherlock (which I have yet to finish as I had a Cumberbatch reaction) I always think how great it would have been if I'd watched it 10+ years ago. I think I'm quite over these unconnected, vaguely nihilistic characters. I no longer want to thaw them out.

Freeman is incredibly sweet though.

[Dorian Thompson]

I agree. Freeman is adorable. He doesn't get nearly enough credit and he's just as important a piece of the equation. It's John's reaction to Sherlock's death that elicits the tears. It's not that Sherlock was so victimized by Moriarty that his entire reputation and reason for being was left in tatters and he felt he had to fake death to save his loved ones and would be--presumably--alone the rest of his life. That would be a horrible thing to happen to anyone, but I didn't feel pity for Sherlock. Sherlock is compelling, but it's John who elicits the sympathy. There are still times when I'm taken aback by what an ass Sherlock can be. A funny ass, a compelling, broken ass, but still an ass with a hole in it.

[stj]

Sherlock has some really funny dialogue. But as to Sherlock being a "sociopath," well, he said so himself. Holmes kidding/misunderstanding himself or babbling something not true under stress is not Sherlock's Holmes.

[teacake]

I could eat Freeman up with cream.

It was somewhat disturbing to see the first Hobbit photos because suddenly I was thinking how hot a Hobbit was and Tolkien is the most asexual opus ever. I wasn't excited about the Hobbit until I heard that casting which is perfection.

[teacake]

Dorian Thompson wrote:

---

A funny ass, a compelling, broken ass, but still an ass with a hole in it.

[Christopher]

Dorian Thompson wrote:

---

Indeed. I may have to check out this Brett Miller Sherlock if I can ever get my hands on some episodes.

It's Jonny Lee Miller, and the series is Elementary, the same one we've been discussing for a while. It's airing in first run on CBS, and past episodes are available on CBS.com or possibly on your cable service's On Demand channels.

[mswood]

Dorian

How the hell is it possible that you are just now watching Sherlock? I mean seriously. I LOVE the show. Seriously as much as you love strong character work between two actors you should have been on this a long, long time ago.

Its official, I say we kill your boss.

[Stiletto]

OK, I think I've found a way that Sherlok could have survived the fall at the end. It's not MY theory, but it sounds reasonable...

OK, this is going to be SPOILERY/POSSIBLE...
I'm warning you, don't look if you don't want to read speculation

Earlier in the episode, Sherlock figured out that Moriarty most likely had a guy that looked like Sherlock kidnap those kids and terrorize them so that they would point at the real Sherlock as the culprit. Also, Sherlock suggested that once done with the double, Moriarty probably killed him. Later, Sherlock asked the girl at the morgue that loves him ( forgot her name!) if he would do her a big favor (which they keep hidden). So! To stop the assassins from killing his friends, Sherlock makes it look like he jumps (or actually does and survives) but then the girl switches the body to the double's in the morgue.

[Christopher]

^But that doesn't actually account for how he survived the fall, just for how he faked the body.

[mswood]

Christopher

Elementary isn't a big hit, its doing below average for a show on CBS. It will very likely get a 2nd season, not based just on its ratings, but on three aging hourlong that have basically finished their tv life.