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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 17 2012, 06:48 PM   #31
Phily B
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
If the Enterprise is quick enough, gathering that much water on take off, it may still be covered in sheets of water as it moves over land to beam Spock out of the volcano and leave.

Which would not reveal the existance of aliens or starships to the natives. On the other hand, it may look to them that some sort of sea god rose up and quelled the volcano...
I don't know, but I get the impression that part of the movie is gonna be Kirk + crew being reprimanded for violating the prime directive, which is why the Enterprise is back on Earth. Sounds like a good idea you have there too. I was reading Orci was a big fan of the TOS book Prime Directive which had a story about that.
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Old December 17 2012, 06:57 PM   #32
Ryan8bit
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Kirk violated the Prime Directive pretty much any time he felt like it.
Yeah, isn't the point of bringing it up usually just to break it? I suppose the Malcorians are an exception, coincidentally.
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Old December 17 2012, 07:58 PM   #33
Cinema Geekly
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

I would think that non interference might be more related to introducing new facts about the universe, new technology and the like into a race not quite ready for them. That would radically alter the evolution of those people.

I would like to think that an attempted uncover operation to save a culture from extinction would be okay under the PD.
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Old December 17 2012, 08:05 PM   #34
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post

I would like to think that an attempted uncover operation to save a culture from extinction would be okay under the PD.
Not in the 24th century, see the TNG episodes Pen Pals and Homeward.
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Old December 17 2012, 08:09 PM   #35
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Kirk violated the Prime Directive pretty much any time he felt like it.
Yeah, isn't the point of bringing it up usually just to break it? I suppose the Malcorians are an exception, coincidentally.
I'd say even the Malcorians would constitute a Prime Directive violation. Riker had sex with one of the females. Who knows what he could've introduced to the biosphere by committing that act? Plus they removed what could have been a disruptive and evolutionary element by allowing Minister Yale to leave the planet. They eliminated an element that may have spurred the Malcorians onto the next step in their social/technological evolution.
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Old December 17 2012, 08:30 PM   #36
Ryan8bit
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'd say even the Malcorians would constitute a Prime Directive violation. Riker had sex with one of the females. Who knows what he could've introduced to the biosphere by committing that act? Plus they removed what could have been a disruptive and evolutionary element by allowing Minister Yale to leave the planet. They eliminated an element that may have spurred the Malcorians onto the next step in their social/technological evolution.
We do know that covert operations are allowed, and that trying to hide them as best as possible is usually the case. Once contamination has already accidentally occurred, it's up to the crew to try and limit that contamination, and the PD no longer applies to that specific contamination.

More so what I meant was that whenever they bring up the Prime Directive, they intend to bring it up so that they can willfully disobey it. Like the aforementioned "Pen Pals." There was no way they were going to have a story where the crew didn't save the planet. The directive was put there so that they could have some sort of moral debate where the outcome was easily understood. It was nothing more than a device to make that happen, so that's probably why it doesn't make practical sense.
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Old December 17 2012, 09:20 PM   #37
Jackson_Roykirk
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post

I would like to think that an attempted uncover operation to save a culture from extinction would be okay under the PD.
Not in the 24th century, see the TNG episodes Pen Pals and Homeward.
Yeah, but this is the 23rd century. The PD is different.

The PD as defined in TOS is:
"No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space or the fact that there are other worlds or civilizations."

The is no mention of letting a race die just because saving them would be interference. In fact, in the definition of the PD as stated above, the Federation could in fact save a peoples from destruction as long as the true identity people doing the "saving" (i.e., Federation space travelers) is kept a secret from the primitive race, and the social development of a planet is not affected. Saving a planet from destruction is not necessarily "interfering with the social development of said planet". It could be done so without interfering with social development.interference.

It seems that the 23rd century PD allows for such a mission of mercy, especially if the race of people don't really know they were saved by people from another world. If Kirk, et al go in, save the planet, and leave without raising a ruckus (or too much of one), then all is Kosher with the PD.
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Old December 17 2012, 11:04 PM   #38
Greg Cox
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

The Prime Directive is made to be broken, especially where Kirk is involved!

And I'm sure the people on Miramanee's planet appreciate that! Not to mention the planets freed from Landru, Vaal, the Oracle of Yonada, etc.
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Old December 17 2012, 11:56 PM   #39
Mister Fandango
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

I must have watched a different preview or something.

In the one I saw, Spock clearly says "if this volcano erupts, the planet dies." It also shows Kirk and McCoy causing a distraction in order to keep the natives from seeing the shuttle craft flying into the volcano; the fact that they had the entire village hunting them down like dogs was wholly unexpected. Both Kirk and McCoy were totally surprised by the reaction. The natives that were chasing them being saved from the minor eruption was pure happenstance.

And that's why Spock was so upset and bitching about the plan to expose the Enterprise. It would defeat everything they had just done, namely keeping themselves from being revealed to the natives. It certainly didn't have anything to do with Kirk trying to save the natives; that's what Spock was risking his life for! Kirk was just going to disregard the Prime Directive in order to try and save Spock, too.

It was pretty straight forward. I'm not entirely sure how so many people were unable to keep up with it...
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Old December 17 2012, 11:58 PM   #40
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post

It was pretty straight forward. I'm not entirely sure how so many people were unable to keep up with it...
This.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:54 AM   #41
Jackson_Roykirk
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I must have watched a different preview or something.

In the one I saw, Spock clearly says "if this volcano erupts, the planet dies." It also shows Kirk and McCoy causing a distraction in order to keep the natives from seeing the shuttle craft flying into the volcano; the fact that they had the entire village hunting them down like dogs was wholly unexpected. Both Kirk and McCoy were totally surprised by the reaction. The natives that were chasing them being saved from the minor eruption was pure happenstance.

And that's why Spock was so upset and bitching about the plan to expose the Enterprise. It would defeat everything they had just done, namely keeping themselves from being revealed to the natives. It certainly didn't have anything to do with Kirk trying to save the natives; that's what Spock was risking his life for! Kirk was just going to disregard the Prime Directive in order to try and save Spock, too.

It was pretty straight forward. I'm not entirely sure how so many people were unable to keep up with it...
Exactly.

Like I said, in TOS, as long as the Federation does not reveal themselves "as people from another planet" to the natives, or reveal space travel, or screw with the social order of their society, then they are allowed to stop the civilization's destruction (and saving the civilization from destruction does not constitute screwing with their social order).

So Spock's issue with the Enterprise revealing itself to the natives in order to save him does make perfect sense from the standpoint of the TOS PD.
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Old December 18 2012, 01:41 AM   #42
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

It is discovered in "The Last Outpost" that "...that Starfleet has permitted several civilizations to fall. We have at times allowed the strong and violent to overcome the weak." Strange words to be sure.

The depiction of Captain Kirk saving a species from extinction was established in the prime universe. According to Q Junior, the captain violated the PD when he saved the Pelosians, the Baezians, and the Chenari from extinction.

I think that Captain Kirk exercised the PD far better than Captain Picard. I felt that the latter was more quick to enforce the PD when it is discovered that the society is less advanced than any Federation world. On the other hand, the former evaluates the society and comes to a determination if the people in the society are progressing or static. When a society is static, this is when Kirk intervened.
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Old December 18 2012, 02:02 AM   #43
Franklin
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

Jackson_Roykirk wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I must have watched a different preview or something.

In the one I saw, Spock clearly says "if this volcano erupts, the planet dies." It also shows Kirk and McCoy causing a distraction in order to keep the natives from seeing the shuttle craft flying into the volcano; the fact that they had the entire village hunting them down like dogs was wholly unexpected. Both Kirk and McCoy were totally surprised by the reaction. The natives that were chasing them being saved from the minor eruption was pure happenstance.

And that's why Spock was so upset and bitching about the plan to expose the Enterprise. It would defeat everything they had just done, namely keeping themselves from being revealed to the natives. It certainly didn't have anything to do with Kirk trying to save the natives; that's what Spock was risking his life for! Kirk was just going to disregard the Prime Directive in order to try and save Spock, too.

It was pretty straight forward. I'm not entirely sure how so many people were unable to keep up with it...
Exactly.

Like I said, in TOS, as long as the Federation does not reveal themselves "as people from another planet" to the natives, or reveal space travel, or screw with the social order of their society, then they are allowed to stop the civilization's destruction (and saving the civilization from destruction does not constitute screwing with their social order).

So Spock's issue with the Enterprise revealing itself to the natives in order to save him does make perfect sense from the standpoint of the TOS PD.
Put me in this camp. If Starfleet is a humanitarian armada, then refusing life-saving (species-saving) aid for any beings when it can give assistance is against what it stands for.

What it's supposed to prevent was so elegantly said by McCoy in Bread and Circuses: "Once, just once, I'd like to be able to land someplace and say, 'Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel!"'

I don't see how Starfleet and the Federation could claim life has value in any state, and yet stand by and let a species become extinct based on principle. That's just pompous and actually goes against honoring the sanctity of life. Got warp drive? We'll save you. No? Well, tough for you.
Also, in the grand tapestry of things, maybe you, the advanced species, were SUPPOSED to be there and be able to render aid. Ever think of that?
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Old December 18 2012, 02:24 AM   #44
BillJ
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

Franklin wrote: View Post
Also, in the grand tapestry of things, maybe you, the advanced species, were SUPPOSED to be there and be able to render aid. Ever think of that?
Either Troi or Pulaski make that exact argument in Pen Pals.
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Old December 18 2012, 04:54 AM   #45
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Re: Prime Directive violation?

Phily B wrote: View Post
I don't know, but I get the impression that part of the movie is gonna be Kirk + crew being reprimanded for violating the prime directive, which is why the Enterprise is back on Earth. Sounds like a good idea you have there too. I was reading Orci was a big fan of the TOS book Prime Directive which had a story about that.
I don't think this beginning scene has very much bearing, if any, on the overall plot of the film.

I think the only story-telling purpose of this scene was to show us (the audience) that the Enterprise and her crew (our heroes) are out there doing their job, which is conducting missions on behalf of the Federation -- just like the TOS crew did.

In that respect, this scene's only purpose may be to establish the fact that following the whole Nero incident, Kirk and crew have been busy with something akin to TOS's "Five Year Mission".
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