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Old December 22 2012, 05:12 PM   #301
JarodRussell
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

You can't shoot people if you don't have access to a gun. It's pretty simple actually.


Oh yeah, it's a long term issue, especially in gun crazy US. Restrict, control and ban guns now, and millions of them will be around for quite a while, yes. But in a few decades with strict gun control, the goal would be reached.


And that hilarious debate about the term "assault weapon", geez. Out of arguments, are we?
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Old December 22 2012, 05:28 PM   #302
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Semantics? Involving 'Hitler' Godwins? Really?

Call them however you want - the fact remains, semi-automatic weapons with high-capacity magazines are designed to kill human beings and little else; are constantly used for this very purpose by losers in USA due to their wide availability (which is blatantly obvious to anyone who read homicides statistics, mass shootings statistics, etc); are far more efficient at killing human beings than the other 'weapons' available to said losers.

These are obvious facts and most people are smart enough to understand them - especially when they're repeatedly pointed out to them.


Which makes some people rather disappointing as human beings:
I don't claim to be a saint or something similar - FAR from it - but I can claim with confidence that I would renounce a collecting hobby of mine if, by doing so, I could save the life of tens/hundreds/thousands of human beings.
As opposed to engaging in obvious obfuscation attempts by straw-men and semantic irrelevancies, in order to keep my toys.
Assault weapons are used in less than 1.5% of firearm related crime, and less than 1% of firearm related homicides. As of 2000, the most common used firearm in gun related crime, the smith & wesson .38 revolver...

Infact, if you look at the ATF's top ten most used guns, there ain't an assault weapon or even rifle amongst the list.

The top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according to an unpublished study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and obtained exclusively by TIME:

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic


link.
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Old December 22 2012, 05:34 PM   #303
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

NightmareB4Holmes wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Semantics? Involving 'Hitler' Godwins? Really?

Call them however you want - the fact remains, semi-automatic weapons with high-capacity magazines are designed to kill human beings and little else; are constantly used for this very purpose by losers in USA due to their wide availability (which is blatantly obvious to anyone who read homicides statistics, mass shootings statistics, etc); are far more efficient at killing human beings than the other 'weapons' available to said losers.

These are obvious facts and most people are smart enough to understand them - especially when they're repeatedly pointed out to them.


Which makes some people rather disappointing as human beings:
I don't claim to be a saint or something similar - FAR from it - but I can claim with confidence that I would renounce a collecting hobby of mine if, by doing so, I could save the life of tens/hundreds/thousands of human beings.
As opposed to engaging in obvious obfuscation attempts by straw-men and semantic irrelevancies, in order to keep my toys.
Assault weapons are used in less than 1.5% of firearm related crime, and less than 1% of firearm related homicides. As of 2000, the most common used firearm in gun related crime, the smith & wesson .38 revolver...

Infact, if you look at the ATF's top ten most used guns, there ain't an assault weapon or even rifle amongst the list.

The top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according to an unpublished study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and obtained exclusively by TIME:

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic


link.
Great. Then no one will miss them.

I guess there's nothing that can be done for these hundred or so people either?

3 Shot And Killed In Mich... 18-Year-Old Shot Multiple Times, Dies... Man Kills Wife, Teen, Himself... Man Shoots, Kills Own Son... Cops Shoot Teen Dead...Man Gunned Down In Parking Lot... 5 Dead In Spate Of Shootings... 2 Murdered In Philly... 2 Kansas Cops Shot Dead... Shooter Killed... 4 Die In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Ga. Cop Dies From Gunshot... Argument Leads Teen To Shoot Friend... Man Shot To Death... Teen Dies After Being Tied Up, Shot... Man Shot Dead In Street... Drug Deal Leads To Shooting Death... Mother Of 2 Killed In Road Rage Shooting... Man Shoots, Kills Intruder... 1 Killed In Coney Island...Man Dies From Gunshot Wounds... Cops Investigate Gun Death... Shooting Victim's Body Found On Bike Trail... Man Charged With Shooting Own Brother Dead... Man Dies After Being Shot In Chest... Body Of Shooting Victim Found In Pickup... Teen Arrested For Robbery Shooting Death... Man Carrying 2-Year-Old Son Shot Dead... Man Fatally Shot Near Home... Parolee Dies In Shooting... 1 Killed In Buffalo Shooting... Man Shot Dead In Apartment Complex... Street Gun Battle Kills Grandma Bystander... Man, Woman Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Woman Shot Dead By Intruder... 14-Year-Old Arrested Over Fatal Gun Attack... Man Found Shot Dead In Parking Lot... Woman Shot In Face By Ex-Boyfriend... 1 Woman, 3 Men Shot Dead... 2 Die In Attempted Robbery... Army Reservist Shot To Death In Alley... Man Shot To Death In Bodega... 2 Shot Dead In Burned House... Man Shot During Break-In... Man Fatally Shot... 20-Year-Old Gunned Down... Man Shoots Self During Police Pursuit... 1 Killed In Baltimore Shooting... Cops ID Shooting Victim... 60-Year-Old Man Shot Dead... Shot Man's Body Found In Vacant House.... Woman Shot And Killed Outside Her Home...Shooting Victim Was 'Trying To Turn Life Around'... Slain Shooting Victim Found In Street.... Driving Altercation Leads To Shooting, 1 Dies... 3-Year-Old Dies In Accidental Shooting... Man Turns Self In After Allegedly Shooting Wife...Man Shot Dead Outside Home... 3 Slain In Separate New Orleans Shootings...Cops Investigate Shooting Death... Man Shot Dead In Ohio... Teen Shot To Death... Man Dies After Being Shot Multiple Times... Man Charged Over Son's Shooting Death... Cops Find 2 Men Shot Dead... 1 Dies In Shooting... Man Charged Over Gun Killing... 1 Shot Dead In Confrontation... Man Charged With Murder Over Shooting... Motel-Owner Shot And Killed... Husband Shoots Estranged Wife Dead... Suspect Arrested Over Deputy's Shooting Death... Police Probe Fatal Shooting... Cops Kill 2 Suspects In 3 Shooting Deaths... Man Killed Fighting Back Against Robber... Man Killed In Home Invasion.... Nightclub Shooting Kills 1... Child Brain Dead After Drive By Shooting... Man Charged Over Shooting Of Ex-Wife... Body Found In Vacant House... Teen Fatally Shot...

These are the people who are dead thanks to a projectile fired at a high velocity since Sandy Hook.

I'm ready to hear your ideas about preventing another Sandy Hook from happening rather than stopping someone in the act of doing it. Everything I've heard proposed so far is reactive and not proactive.
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Last edited by Squiggy; December 22 2012 at 05:44 PM.
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Old December 22 2012, 05:35 PM   #304
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

He will.
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Old December 22 2012, 06:40 PM   #305
Brolan
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
You can't shoot people if you don't have access to a gun. It's pretty simple actually.


Oh yeah, it's a long term issue, especially in gun crazy US. Restrict, control and ban guns now, and millions of them will be around for quite a while, yes. But in a few decades with strict gun control, the goal would be reached.


And that hilarious debate about the term "assault weapon", geez. Out of arguments, are we?
The problem is everyone in the US has access to a gun. If your family doesn't have one, one of your neighbors does. You just need to wait until they are out.

With even minimal maintenance a gun will last 100 years. They will be with us a long time.
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Old December 22 2012, 06:44 PM   #306
JarodRussell
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Brolan wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
You can't shoot people if you don't have access to a gun. It's pretty simple actually.


Oh yeah, it's a long term issue, especially in gun crazy US. Restrict, control and ban guns now, and millions of them will be around for quite a while, yes. But in a few decades with strict gun control, the goal would be reached.


And that hilarious debate about the term "assault weapon", geez. Out of arguments, are we?
The problem is everyone in the US has access to a gun. If your family doesn't have one, one of your neighbors does. You just need to wait until they are out.

With even minimal maintenance a gun will last 100 years. They will be with us a long time.
That can be changed. What's up with this whole Fatalism?
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Old December 22 2012, 06:56 PM   #307
Brolan
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Well, it's just not going to work. It didn't work for booze, it's not working for drugs, it's not going to work for guns. The only chance I see is a buy back program from the Feds that would offer over market values for guns, that would be destroyed. That would drive up the value of the remaining guns so they would either be sold to the Feds or secured better.
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Old December 22 2012, 06:56 PM   #308
JarodRussell
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Brolan wrote: View Post
Well, it's just not going to work. It didn't work for booze, it's not working for drugs, it's not going to work for guns. The only chance I see is a buy back program from the Feds that would offer over market values for guns, that would destroyed. That would drive up the value of the remaining guns so they would either be sold to the Feds or secured better.
And that in the Greatest Nation in the World, my ass.


And then again, guns aren't addictive, or at least for normal non crazy people they shouldn't be.

Years ago, people thought the tobacco lobby was so strong that there would never be any improvements made. But things improve gradually, over a long time, if you're just willing to finally do something, and continue to do something.
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Old December 22 2012, 07:13 PM   #309
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

The Russians completely banned guns about 90 years ago. They're still waiting for their murder rate to drop to US levels.

As for banning guns to save even one life, that logic would have us ban everything. Every year televisions kill twice as many children as died at Sandy Hook. Then there's knives, fire, car accidents, alcohol, red meat, and smoking.

And of course you'd have to ban guns for police and the military. The second largest mass shooting was by a cop, and a US military officer killed about as many people as Sandy Hook just a few years ago.
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Old December 22 2012, 07:17 PM   #310
Brolan
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Brolan wrote: View Post
Well, it's just not going to work. It didn't work for booze, it's not working for drugs, it's not going to work for guns. The only chance I see is a buy back program from the Feds that would offer over market values for guns, that would destroyed. That would drive up the value of the remaining guns so they would either be sold to the Feds or secured better.
And that in the Greatest Nation in the World, my ass.


And then again, guns aren't addictive, or at least for normal non crazy people they shouldn't be.

Years ago, people thought the tobacco lobby was so strong that there would never be any improvements made. But things improve gradually, over a long time, if you're just willing to finally do something, and continue to do something.
There is just a tiny difference in that there wasn't an amendment in the US Constitution that said people could smoke.
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Old December 22 2012, 07:27 PM   #311
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
As for banning guns to save even one life, that logic would have us ban everything. Every year televisions kill twice as many children as died at Sandy Hook. Then there's knives, fire, car accidents, alcohol, red meat, and smoking.

Guns are the most used weapon in the US for murder. That's a fact. No pedantic, moronic moving of the goalposts, no redefining of the argument, no making shit up will change that.

Your television analogy is flawed because you're using what happens in one year to what happened in one day, and even that is wrong.
Your knife analogy is flawed because it's simply wrong.
Fire can't be outlawed. However we have regulated building materials to make them as fireproof as possible.
Car accidents are by definition accidents. They're also regulated to holy hell.
Alcohol isn't used to kill children. But guess what...it's more regulated than guns.
Red meat didn't kill more kids last year than guns. That's just fucking stupid.
Kids don't die from smoking. They die later in life from it. Smoking is also more regulated than guns.

Stop. Making. Shit. Up.

Guns are the only thing we can regulate to stop or stem this from happening against but apparently they're off the table. Every other thing can be controlled to some extent but because fear is what keeps the NRA going...nope. We simply can't.

And if that's the case, if we simply "wont" do anything from this, then we fucking suck as a people.
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Old December 22 2012, 07:49 PM   #312
JarodRussell
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Brolan wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Brolan wrote: View Post
Well, it's just not going to work. It didn't work for booze, it's not working for drugs, it's not going to work for guns. The only chance I see is a buy back program from the Feds that would offer over market values for guns, that would destroyed. That would drive up the value of the remaining guns so they would either be sold to the Feds or secured better.
And that in the Greatest Nation in the World, my ass.


And then again, guns aren't addictive, or at least for normal non crazy people they shouldn't be.

Years ago, people thought the tobacco lobby was so strong that there would never be any improvements made. But things improve gradually, over a long time, if you're just willing to finally do something, and continue to do something.
There is just a tiny difference in that there wasn't an amendment in the US Constitution that said people could smoke.
Then change it for crying out loud. That thing was written 200 years ago when times were totally different. Had they known back then what kind of crazy shit was sold as firearms to anyone today, there wouldn't be a 2nd amendment.
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Old December 22 2012, 07:54 PM   #313
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

I hear that line about Russians banning guns a lot. Then I remember reading that when he was a resident of the former Soviet Union Lee Harvey Oswald was a member of a hunting club. What did they use, rocks?
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Old December 22 2012, 08:05 PM   #314
Brolan
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Brolan wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And that in the Greatest Nation in the World, my ass.


And then again, guns aren't addictive, or at least for normal non crazy people they shouldn't be.

Years ago, people thought the tobacco lobby was so strong that there would never be any improvements made. But things improve gradually, over a long time, if you're just willing to finally do something, and continue to do something.
There is just a tiny difference in that there wasn't an amendment in the US Constitution that said people could smoke.
Then change it for crying out loud. That thing was written 200 years ago when times were totally different. Had they known back then what kind of crazy shit was sold as firearms to anyone today, there wouldn't be a 2nd amendment.
The Second Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights, I don't think that can be eliminated. If it can be it would be very hard to do, because all the states have to approve of it and the deep Southern states would never pass it.
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Old December 22 2012, 08:11 PM   #315
Squiggy
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Brolan wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Brolan wrote: View Post

There is just a tiny difference in that there wasn't an amendment in the US Constitution that said people could smoke.
Then change it for crying out loud. That thing was written 200 years ago when times were totally different. Had they known back then what kind of crazy shit was sold as firearms to anyone today, there wouldn't be a 2nd amendment.
The Second Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights, I don't think that can be eliminated. If it can be it would be very hard to do, because all the states have to approve of it and the deep Southern states would never pass it.
Any part of the constitution can be changed, it's just extremely difficult to do (by design).

And all the states don't have to approve an amendment.

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