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Old January 16 2013, 02:20 AM   #121
T'Girl
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

USS Einstein wrote: View Post
in their post-scarcity economy
Where from the show do you get this idea that they possess a "post-scarcity" economy?

This would appear to be the glaring hole in your theory.
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Old January 18 2013, 01:33 AM   #122
TheGoodNews
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

USS Einstein wrote: View Post
In terms of Star Trek, credits seem to only be used for non-essentials.

Accommodation, education, healthcare, food, access to literature, and all the other things a healthy being needs to develop in a wholesome way, are all free, in their post-scarcity economy.

But, things that require more resources in terms of energy, or land use, require Federation credits (perhaps a form of energy credit) - so Kirk's house, being an inefficient building using a lot of land, would be an example.



Some companies, that make luxury/niche goods, like clock-makers, wineries, brewers, etc, may still exist, but without any profit motive - with full democratic control handed over to workers - no wage slavery - no charge for what they produce, other than energy credits - no reason to work for them except out of love for the craft, and perhaps more energy credits - no malign need to advertise or propagandize their product.

Perhaps in order to prevent people inheriting material posessions and becoming covetous, you can't pass things down to children - Kirk's cabin would go to someone else upon his death - or perhaps greed is simply prevented by people being more enlightened about what makes a human life worth living.

Other than that, I doubt Star Trek uses anything like monetary economics (either capitalist or socialist) - rather, it seems to be closer to what Marxists call 'pure communism', or to an anarchist society of collectives without coercion or compulsion, or to a green resource-based economy.

The most important thing is, it is post-scarcity. Most of our economics deal with a world in which money exists or resources are limited.
May not necessarily need to be post-scarcity, but it probably wouldn't hurt.

"Medical care and medicines are free. Even postage stamps are free. There is no rent. Housing, building repairs, water, gas, electricity-all are supplied gratis, not only to the collectivists but also to the 'individualists.'" The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff.

"Doctors, barbers, carpenters and cobblers usually gave their services free and in return were maintained by the community." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.

"Many of the normal motives of civilized life-snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.-has simply ceased to exist." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia.

I suppose for those without a fantastic view of the ocean or mountains they may have to sign up for holo-imaging service.
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Old January 18 2013, 11:45 AM   #123
JarodRussell
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Unicron wrote: View Post
And yet in TSFS, McCoy was clearly familiar with the concept of money when he was trying to buy passage to Genesis. When it comes to money and economics, Trek wound up with a system that's more complicated than it needs to be.
Yes, because all the other economies around the Federation are based on currency.

It really isn't that hard, as I explained somewhere before in this thread. The Federation has an excessive amount of clean, renewable energy sources, they produce so much energy and use it so efficiently that they don't know where to put it. And then they mastered the technology of turning energy into matter and vice versa. That's the basis for an economy that doesn't need any money and can provide basic services for every single citizen for free. Housing, almost 100% efficient solar panels, replicators, what else do you need to live a healthy life?

There is a currency, it's the Federation Credit. But it's not money, it's energy packages.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:11 PM   #124
T'Girl
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But it's not money, it's energy packages.
But that would still be a form of money. If this "energy packet" is used to acquire goods and services, then it's money.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:19 PM   #125
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Money: any article or substance used as a medium of exchange, measure of wealth, or means of payment, as checks on demand deposit or cowrie.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:22 PM   #126
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The Federation has an excessive amount of clean, renewable energy sources, they produce so much energy and use it so efficiently that they don't know where to put it. And then they mastered the technology of turning energy into matter and vice versa.
This would work only if the federation knows how to break conservation of energy (it doesn't, as per the entirety of star trek).

You seem to have no idea how much energy is needed in order to create, for example, 1 kg of atoms.
This would be the energy produced by +1/2 kg antimatter and +1/2 kg matter (assuming the federation can efficiently capture and use neutrinos). In other words, enough to atomically blow up an entire continent (easily).

The energy generators shown in star trek (matter/antimatter and fusion generators) are not powerful enough - by orders of magnitude - in order for energy so wastefully used to be plentiful.
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Old January 19 2013, 12:35 AM   #127
JarodRussell
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The Federation has an excessive amount of clean, renewable energy sources, they produce so much energy and use it so efficiently that they don't know where to put it. And then they mastered the technology of turning energy into matter and vice versa.
This would work only if the federation knows how to break conservation of energy (it doesn't, as per the entirety of star trek).

You seem to have no idea how much energy is needed in order to create, for example, 1 kg of atoms.
This would be the energy produced by +1/2 kg antimatter and +1/2 kg matter (assuming the federation can efficiently capture and use neutrinos). In other words, enough to atomically blow up an entire continent (easily).

The energy generators shown in star trek (matter/antimatter and fusion generators) are not powerful enough - by orders of magnitude - in order for energy so wastefully used to be plentiful.
Well, apparently they are, because they do all that stuff on a regular basis, don't they?
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Old January 19 2013, 12:47 AM   #128
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

They do it on a regular basis on a starship normally not in a preperation for battle status. Or they pay Quark.
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Old January 19 2013, 06:51 AM   #129
magarity
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Read More's "Utopia" for a fairly accurate description of how a society without money or private property would need to operate.
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Old January 19 2013, 07:15 AM   #130
Edit_XYZ
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The Federation has an excessive amount of clean, renewable energy sources, they produce so much energy and use it so efficiently that they don't know where to put it. And then they mastered the technology of turning energy into matter and vice versa.
This would work only if the federation knows how to break conservation of energy (it doesn't, as per the entirety of star trek).

You seem to have no idea how much energy is needed in order to create, for example, 1 kg of atoms.
This would be the energy produced by +1/2 kg antimatter and +1/2 kg matter (assuming the federation can efficiently capture and use neutrinos). In other words, enough to atomically blow up an entire continent (easily).

The energy generators shown in star trek (matter/antimatter and fusion generators) are not powerful enough - by orders of magnitude - in order for energy so wastefully used to be plentiful.
Well, apparently they are, because they do all that stuff on a regular basis, don't they?
No, they don't - I hope you do realize it's only smoke and mirrors, yes?

If you want to come up with a non-absurd/hillarious explanation, well, that's not the 'converting matter into energy' one - assuming you want to maintain even the pretense of following the laws of psysics.

A more credible explanation (offered and consistently used in trek lit) is that replicators use already available matter and rearrange it into the needed combinations by using acceptable amounts of energy.

Read - available matter; energy. Someone has to get them.

Also - job as a waiter, miner, etc, etc - if you think a substantial percentage of the population will do such jobs day in and day out only because of 'hobby' - .
ANY job involving stress, repetition, responsibility (as in - if you make a mistake, say goodbye to your career, social status) and less time with family/friends requires incentive beyond 'hobby' in the medium and long term.
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Old January 19 2013, 12:50 PM   #131
T'Girl
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

magarity wrote: View Post
Read More's "Utopia" for a fairly accurate description of how a society without money or private property would need to operate.
Yes, let's read Sir Thomas More's book Utopia stall we?

The Utopians have slaves.

It is a serious crime to discuss any political business in private or public, these matters can only legally be discussed in the government assembly.

Families can be broken up by the Utopian government and reassembled (as the government sees fit) to address population distribution problems.

All of Utopia's 54 cities have exactly the same cultural practices, customs, and language. There is no diversity.

Individual and private activities are discouraged. Activities (like eating) are to be parts of the communal life.

Privacy is basically forbidden (certainly unobtainable), doors can not locked or even latched. All buildings and rooms are accessible to any person.

There's no private property.

Premarital sex is illegal and severely punished.

People found to have committed repeated adultery are put to death.

The Utopians employ a neighboring people (the Zapoletes) as mercenaries for their wars, partially because the Utopians find these people moral inferior and want to "use them up."

*****

What a charming people. Let's base the Federation on their society.

*****

Last edited by T'Girl; January 19 2013 at 01:09 PM.
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Old January 21 2013, 10:05 PM   #132
hux
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

When i watched TNG, i always wondered why there would be waiters? Picard tells the unfrozen people from earths past that in the future, people don't do things for material gain but instead they do things to better themselves so presumably everyone is doing what they want with their lives and there is no need for money...........but wait, that means someone actually wants to be a waiter?? what....because this betters them (as Picard claimed).....really!!.....i mean sure, running a star ship is a challenge but hey, waiting on him would be just as much of a challenge.....it sure would sir......bollocks!

Like in all societies.....the rich will always need someone to bring them their drinks....in Trek, they solve this by pretending it's what people want to do with their lives.....people want to bring Picard his drinks while he explores the unknown because ya know....it's a challenge .......when i see someone working an 8 hour shift in Tesco, i don't kid myself that they are doing it to better themselves or that they want to be there but for some reason Trek expects us to buy this

That's why i liked the Maquis....they were the first thing in Trek to suggest that this Utopian society was not all it was cracked up to be
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Old January 22 2013, 07:47 AM   #133
robau
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

hux wrote: View Post
but wait, that means someone actually wants to be a waiter??
Everyone still needs to start somewhere.
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Old January 22 2013, 09:01 AM   #134
Edit_XYZ
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

robau wrote: View Post
hux wrote: View Post
but wait, that means someone actually wants to be a waiter??
Everyone still needs to start somewhere.
Not if you can spend your life partying and still be no worse off than a hard working waiter.
In this case, you do not need to "start" at all.

Also - being a "waiter" is not a job that gives you skills useful in high prestige jobs (it is pretty much a dead end job).
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Old January 22 2013, 10:43 AM   #135
hux
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

robau wrote: View Post
Everyone still needs to start somewhere.
But surely that's the point.....no they don't....they can just stay at home playing in holo novels with beautiful women all day and only stop for the occasional replicated meal (that's pretty much what i'd be doing) certainly if they lived in a society where money was redundant because all needs were catered for at least.........so why would i suddenly give up my daily sex sessions with the hottest women in history.........to become a waiter

Yeah sure, i might get bored eventually (unlikely) but even if i did, i could theoretically become anything i wanted.....i could travel, i could go to the academy, i could write my own holo novel, i could do so many things.....................so why in the name of captain Kirks balls would i become a waiter??

the only possible answer could be financial gain - I don't have a problem with the idea that money is redundant in the Star Trek universe but if that's the case then they need to be more consistent in the storytelling....they need to think....wait....why would this guy be a waiter in a world where he could do literally anything he wanted
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