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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 13 2012, 04:09 PM   #1
urbandk
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Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

I don't see any thread or referece to this Trekmovie article that makes what could best be described as a scholarly argument that John Harrison is Khan.

While no speculation is airtight, with the approach of a literary critic Tenuto makes a compelling case.

One of the few countervailing currents for me is Cumberbach's description of his character's motivations, that he should elicit sympathy. Where is the sympathy for Khan?

Otherwise, I tend to agree and find it most likely that a retconned Khan is the villian and that speculation could focus on how this Khan is different from TOS and TWOK Khan.

http://trekmovie.com/2012/12/12/tenu...kness-villain/
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Old December 13 2012, 04:21 PM   #2
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

At the end of the "Space Seed" the writers have left a link of sympathy with Khan saying that Khan would build a great empire in alien planet.
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Old December 13 2012, 04:23 PM   #3
urbandk
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

Maybe an "I didn't choose greatness; it was thrust upon me" angle
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Old December 13 2012, 04:48 PM   #4
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

It's rather silly reasoning - but come on, everyone in Hollywood knows it's Khan.
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Old December 13 2012, 05:25 PM   #5
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

Nope. It's obviously Nomad. Minus the tin can, of course.
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Old December 13 2012, 06:03 PM   #6
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

All of this guessing, hypothesizing, and speculation is a world of fun. Hell, the movie is months away and I already feel like I've gotten my money's worth just listening to everyone go at it.

At first, I really didn't want it to be Khan. I thought it might be Mitchell. Then, I heard people talking about it might be Garth or Sybok or even Robert April. Some folks have put a hell of a lot of thought into their guesses. It's been so fun to read that at this point I don't really have a strong preference for who the villain is. I'm sure I'll be delighted to sit there and munch on my popcorn and root for Kirk and company to put the smackdown on whoever the bad guy turns out to be.
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Old December 13 2012, 06:17 PM   #7
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

I think some of John Tenuto's speculations in the TrekMovie thread are a bit of a stretch but overall he makes a compelling case for Khan as the villain.

I still have a theory rattling around in my head from the early days of speculation about this film based on the book series by Greg Cox about Khan and the Eugenics Wars where Gary Seven played a pivotal role. Ever since I heard about the casting of Peter Weller, I've been struck by how similar he looks to Robert Lansing who played Gary Seven and how he might pass for an older version of the character. Granted, he would have to be a couple hundred years older, but Seven was also a product of genetic engineering and selective breeding that might have given him an extremely long lifespan. He and Khan had some complicated history with each other and did not part ways on especially friendly terms. Seven was essentially responsible for Khan's exile from earth aboard the Botany Bay. Knowing that Orci and Kurtzman are fans of the Trek novels, I can't help wondering if there's some connection.

Of course we also have information that Peter Weller is playing Admiral Marcus, Carol Marcus' father. If that's true then my next guess would be that, in this timeline, the Botany Bay was discovered by Admiral Marcus years earlier, but instead of turning Khan and his followers loose on Ceti Alpha V, Marcus did something else with them. Maybe he imprisoned them or locked them away in a secret laboratory somewhere, or maybe he wound up killing everyone but Khan. Somehow Khan escaped, took on the identity of John Harrison and quietly plotted his revenge.

Or, to reference another possibility that has been floating around, maybe Cumberbatch is actually playing Joachim, Khan's first lieutenant. Maybe Khan's cryo tube malfunctioned and he died before they could get him out, or maybe Khan got himself killed trying to take over Admiral Marcus' ship. Or maybe Khan is still on ice somewhere and Joachim is doing what he's doing to force Khan's release. If you compare pictures of Benedict Cumberbatch and Judson Earney Scott who played Joachim in Star Trek II, there are some striking similarities, minus the flowing golden tresses anyway. Biggest problem with that theory is that most of the arguments in favor of the villain being Khan, the sheer recognizability of the character, argue against the villain being a character like Joachim who most people outside the hardcore ranks of Trek fandom have never even heard of.

I don't know. Too many unanswered questions remain for us to ID the villain conclusively, but the predominance of evidence does seem to be trending toward Khan or someone close to him.
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Old December 13 2012, 07:40 PM   #8
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

Crewman Pratt wrote: View Post
All of this guessing, hypothesizing, and speculation is a world of fun. Hell, the movie is months away and I already feel like I've gotten my money's worth just listening to everyone go at it.

At first, I really didn't want it to be Khan. I thought it might be Mitchell. Then, I heard people talking about it might be Garth or Sybok or even Robert April. Some folks have put a hell of a lot of thought into their guesses. It's been so fun to read that at this point I don't really have a strong preference for who the villain is. I'm sure I'll be delighted to sit there and munch on my popcorn and root for Kirk and company to put the smackdown on whoever the bad guy turns out to be.
I totally agree, and here's the kicker - some of those ideas may actually turn out to be better than the actual movie!
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Old December 13 2012, 08:15 PM   #9
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

Vektor wrote: View Post
Or, to reference another possibility that has been floating around, maybe Cumberbatch is actually playing Joachim, Khan's first lieutenant. Maybe Khan's cryo tube malfunctioned and he died before they could get him out, or maybe Khan got himself killed trying to take over Admiral Marcus' ship. Or maybe Khan is still on ice somewhere and Joachim is doing what he's doing to force Khan's release.
I rather like this idea...kind of like Joachim is the John the Baptist figure, preparing the way for his (in his eyes) Savior, Khan.

He wreaks havoc on the world that rejected their leadership and exiled them, preparing for the "Coming of Khan" for movie III.
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Old December 14 2012, 12:26 AM   #10
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

After getting very excited that the name give was not Khan I'm not wanting to even think about it being Khan any more. Please. Let it not be Khan.
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Old December 14 2012, 01:54 AM   #11
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

Vektor wrote: View Post
Of course we also have information that Peter Weller is playing Admiral Marcus, Carol Marcus' father. If that's true then my next guess would be that, in this timeline, the Botany Bay was discovered by Admiral Marcus years earlier, but instead of turning Khan and his followers loose on Ceti Alpha V, Marcus did something else with them. Maybe he imprisoned them or locked them away in a secret laboratory somewhere, or maybe he wound up killing everyone but Khan. Somehow Khan escaped, took on the identity of John Harrison and quietly plotted his revenge.
HELLO! Wow this is the best most logical theory for Khan when you consider all the facts we have so far. I really like it.

Makes sense. Admiral Marcus (who's said to have a ship / be CEO) finds Botany Bay...maybe because of Nero / paranonia, Starfleet (maybe Section 31) says "hey if they have technology from the future to blow up planets, we need to re-think about everything we've done, including putting those genetically engineered freaks on that sleeper ship".

So Admiral Marcus goes and gets the ship, and let's say it's Khan and all of them and somehow everyone is killed but Khan. Perhaps all of Khan's followers blow up the ship as a diversion to get Khan out....so Khan could be floating around Space, gets picked up by the Klingons. Khan then escapes that as well and is like: "200 years ago I was prince, etc and now the people from Earth tried to kill me and/or killed all of my family, so now I will return to Earth to 1) get my vengance on Admiral (Admiral? Admiral. Admiral!) Marcus...which he does by trying to kill his daughter Carol, who by this point would have gotten the eye of Kirk and then rest of the movie takes place. And 2)wants to show everyone who sent him away before that they need people like him, so he starts sabatoging/blowing up everything, similar to the bad guy from Live Free or Die Hard, where he was a specialist in security and found all these holes but no one would listen to him so he has to go out and show everyone how dangerous it really is, and that someone like him, Khan, should be the ruler/prince of the world, etc.

But he can't just walk around and say he is Khan, so he spends most of the movie as John Harrison, a starfleet cadet, etc who minds to himself. Then when the time is right, he shows who he is. Perhaps after a few detonations of the fleet, people are like WTF is going on. Then Admiral Marcus admits to Kirk/Carol that he did a bad thing many years ago and this could be the result of one man getting his vengance...and then that's when John Harrison reveals himself as Khan (maybe its near / at end of movie)

Wow that would be awesome. A fresh new take on the iconic villian of the franchise....kind of like Joker in Nolans Batman
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Old December 14 2012, 02:06 AM   #12
Shilliam Watner
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

crucifixion wrote: View Post
Vektor wrote: View Post
Of course we also have information that Peter Weller is playing Admiral Marcus, Carol Marcus' father. If that's true then my next guess would be that, in this timeline, the Botany Bay was discovered by Admiral Marcus years earlier, but instead of turning Khan and his followers loose on Ceti Alpha V, Marcus did something else with them. Maybe he imprisoned them or locked them away in a secret laboratory somewhere, or maybe he wound up killing everyone but Khan. Somehow Khan escaped, took on the identity of John Harrison and quietly plotted his revenge.
HELLO! Wow this is the best most logical theory for Khan when you consider all the facts we have so far. I really like it.

Makes sense. Admiral Marcus (who's said to have a ship / be CEO) finds Botany Bay...maybe because of Nero / paranonia, Starfleet (maybe Section 31) says "hey if they have technology from the future to blow up planets, we need to re-think about everything we've done, including putting those genetically engineered freaks on that sleeper ship".

So Admiral Marcus goes and gets the ship, and let's say it's Khan and all of them and somehow everyone is killed but Khan. Perhaps all of Khan's followers blow up the ship as a diversion to get Khan out....so Khan could be floating around Space, gets picked up by the Klingons. Khan then escapes that as well and is like: "200 years ago I was prince, etc and now the people from Earth tried to kill me and/or killed all of my family, so now I will return to Earth to 1) get my vengance on Admiral (Admiral? Admiral. Admiral!) Marcus...which he does by trying to kill his daughter Carol, who by this point would have gotten the eye of Kirk and then rest of the movie takes place. And 2)wants to show everyone who sent him away before that they need people like him, so he starts sabatoging/blowing up everything, similar to the bad guy from Live Free or Die Hard, where he was a specialist in security and found all these holes but no one would listen to him so he has to go out and show everyone how dangerous it really is, and that someone like him, Khan, should be the ruler/prince of the world, etc.

But he can't just walk around and say he is Khan, so he spends most of the movie as John Harrison, a starfleet cadet, etc who minds to himself. Then when the time is right, he shows who he is. Perhaps after a few detonations of the fleet, people are like WTF is going on. Then Admiral Marcus admits to Kirk/Carol that he did a bad thing many years ago and this could be the result of one man getting his vengance...and then that's when John Harrison reveals himself as Khan (maybe its near / at end of movie)

Wow that would be awesome. A fresh new take on the iconic villian of the franchise....kind of like Joker in Nolans Batman
I had a interesting thought. What if there was another sleeper ship launched at the same time besides the Botany Bay but this one was found first and kept secret by Starfleet.
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Old December 14 2012, 02:15 AM   #13
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

Peter wellers character I think has the sleeper ship in hiding and john Harrison escapes but has to use this name to hide his true identity and that is khan !!!!
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Old December 14 2012, 02:22 AM   #14
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

Shilliam Watner wrote: View Post
I had a interesting thought. What if there was another sleeper ship launched at the same time besides the Botany Bay but this one was found first and kept secret by Starfleet.
There are also different sides involved in any war. What if we had somebody just as bad as Khan?

I'd say Colonel Green - if the Eugenics and Third World Wars weren't necessarily the same event.

Then again, some future historian will probably lump quite a lot of late 20th/early 21st Century conflicts in together, as part of the same thing... Whether we armed a Middle Eastern power against a Soviet one, masterminded a series of regime changes or basically dealt with a set of connected consequences that breed terrorism.
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Old December 14 2012, 03:53 AM   #15
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Re: Tenuto makes a case for a familiar face *spoilers*

Harrison isn't a stand-in or replacement for Khan. He's either Khan or the harbinger of Khan.

I'm still thinking he's Khan.
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