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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 7 2012, 11:11 AM   #1
Vanyel
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Deanna and cloaked ships

These are the kinds of thing I think of when I have too much time on my hands.

But in Disaster, Deanna could feel, presumably all the conscious people on the Enterprise. The unconscious ones may have been missed by her depending on how hurt they were.

She was also able to feel the two Jellyfish aliens from a distance that seemed greater than the length of the Enterprise in Encounter at Farpoint.

Now, I know this is a leap in logic, but she does have control over here empathic abilities and on a ship with just over 1000 people on board at any given time she must block out the emotions of most of them or maybe get lost in them.

In The Survivors, Kevin Uxbridge put the music in her head to keep her from sensing that either he was more than what he said or that Rishon was not real. So that could indicate that she could read their emotions from orbit either with ease or by concentrating on them.

What I'm saying is that she can feel the emotions or lack of emotions from tremendous distances. So why was she not able to sense the emotions of anyone in a cloaked ship? In The Neutral Zone she gave the vague answer to Picard, they're out there.

Why couldn't she be used like in Nemesis. I know that movie is not very well liked, but it did expand on her abilities in that she could back track her way to the Viceroy, using the link he created, and give Worf a weapons lock. I'm willing to admit that in Nemesis that was a special case. But shouldn't she have been able to give Picard a warning that the Romulans were right behind the Enterprise in The Defector? Why didn't she feel them?

So my question is couldn't her abilities at least give Picard the general location of any cloaked ship near enough to her by opening up her empathic abilities?
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Old December 7 2012, 11:59 AM   #2
Timo
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

She was also able to feel the two Jellyfish aliens from a distance that seemed greater than the length of the Enterprise in Encounter at Farpoint.
...But probably more due to the broadcasting abilities of the critters than due to her own listening abilities. She also seemed atypically overwhelmed by the effects.

So why was she not able to sense the emotions of anyone in a cloaked ship? In The Neutral Zone she gave the vague answer to Picard, they're out there.
Sounds consistent to me. Presence is easily and decisively detected; direction is not among the things she could provide, either here or in any other episode involving her empathic abilities.

But shouldn't she have been able to give Picard a warning that the Romulans were right behind the Enterprise in The Defector? Why didn't she feel them?
Handy rationalization #8472: this might be a range issue. In episodes like "The Neutral Zone", the Romulans would have had every reason to hover just next to the E-D while cloaked, waiting to make an impressive entrance. In "The Defector", they knew the E-D would soon make an attempt to escape from the Nelvana system, but they would not know the heading the ship would choose. So they'd probably maintain their distance, and then do a quick jump to the path of the Starfleet vessel when they saw where she was pointing her bow.

Generally, I don't think Deanna Troi has any sort of a location sense. At most, she could give her impressions on the distances involved, but that, too, might be something she needs to derive from intensity, and intensity at the receiving end in turn would depend on intensity at the sending end. That is, a bunch of agitated Romulans would appear closer than a single equidistant but calm one.

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Old December 7 2012, 02:54 PM   #3
Ln X
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

If thoughts are merely some of sort of energy form and Deanna detects this, then the question is how fast does this energy form travel and does it dissipate with distance (aside from diffusing outwards from the source)?
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Old December 7 2012, 03:01 PM   #4
Timo
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

If it's the same sort of "energy" that allowed Spock to learn of the death of the Intrepid crew in "Immunity Syndrome", then the answer must be 1) very high FTL speed, but 2) unknown, but range is counted in lightyears when source is intense emotions from hundreds of people.

Supposedly, Spock was able to identify the source as being that of the dying Vulcans; he also managed to get some of the contents. (Deanna Troi's abilities might be inherently much more limited, while Lwaxana Troi might have even greater abilities than Spock.) No indication that he could do any sort of direction-finding or range-finding, though.

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Old December 7 2012, 03:06 PM   #5
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

Romulans might be able to block telepathic scans. Since they are the same same species as the Telepathic Vulcans it stands to reason they are as biologically able to offer some mind control to avoid being read. I'm not suggesting total block but certainly able to keep out a telepath from reading their thoughts.

As for completely blocking their presence it seems very unlikely- so maintaining a minimum safe telepathic scan distance would probably be standard practice.
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Old December 7 2012, 09:14 PM   #6
Drago-Kazov
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

This seems to be a reasonable explanation.
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Old December 7 2012, 09:33 PM   #7
Vanyel
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

If the Romulans were moving in closer wouldn't the "appearance" of the emotions of several hundred to maybe a 1000 individuals pop up on her senses and draw her attention like the sound of popping balloon draws our attention?

And didn't she say that there were people in the Stardrive section in Disaster? If so that would indicate that she could get a direction, not as precise as in Nemesis, but a phaser sweep or torpedo in that area should light them up...and do some damage, even if minimal, in the process.

One last thing emotions are different from thoughts. A species might be able, through training - like the Cardassians - resist telepaths. But even in DS9 when the Vulcan was trying to mind meld with Dukat, I'd bet Deanna would sense the fun and joy he was experiencing showing off how well his mind is trained. A cloaked ship that may be coming into battle should put off some emotions like fear, or joy in knowing they had the Enterprise is theirs if they wanted her. The Ferengie and Breen (it was the Breen that Betazoids couldn't read?) would always be able to sneak up on Deanna because they simply do not register on her senses.
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Last edited by Vanyel; December 7 2012 at 09:57 PM.
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Old December 8 2012, 01:02 AM   #8
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

Vanyel wrote: View Post
The Ferengie and Breen (it was the Breen that Betazoids couldn't read?) would always be able to sneak up on Deanna because they simply do not register on her senses.
Deanna did sense the Ferengi in the first episode they appeared. Obviously the writers changed their minds and made them completely unable to be telepathically read by Betazoids later in the series.

Since there was no canon explanation to help understand how she could sense their emotions and presence in one episode perhaps it's down to her being half Betazoid. A lot of people assume that her abilities will be halved as she is 50/50. But maybe its not about being half of what she would be if full betazoid. Maybe the hybrid brain acts a little differently to a full betazoids.
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Old December 8 2012, 11:15 PM   #9
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

Deanna's empathy always mysteriously failed when they needed somebody to get away with lying.
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Old December 10 2012, 11:00 AM   #10
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

Ignore the Romulans for now, how about the Klingons? Was she ever able to tell that there were Klingons cloaked nearby? We KNOW she can sense them.
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Old December 10 2012, 11:28 AM   #11
Mojochi
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Deanna's empathy always mysteriously failed when they needed somebody to get away with lying.
power of convenience. Sort of the same way Data was super fast, but almost never given an opportunity to disarm anyone who pulled a weapon on the crew
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Old December 10 2012, 11:40 AM   #12
Timo
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

And didn't she say that there were people in the Stardrive section in Disaster? If so that would indicate that she could get a direction
Not really. If she only got a rough count, she would know that the people in that section would not be silent = dead, or else the count would be only half as high. And if she got range information, she would know that the stardrive section would be the only possible source at that range.

One last thing emotions are different from thoughts.
And mere presence might show up even when a half-Betazoid would have no idea about the emotional state of the presence, let alone the specific thoughts. A full Betazoid might have the same graduated response, only at greater range. (Even Deanna seems to be able to read thoughts, at extreme point blank range, and with a person she knows well - that is, Riker.)

Deanna did sense the Ferengi in the first episode they appeared.
Nope - in "The Last Outpost", she said she was sensing nothing from them. She speculated they had mental defenses of some sort. Which may well be true - but Quark in "The Search" indicates that even the best such technologies amount to very little, and a true telepathic shield would be priceless to the Ferengi.

In the second episode, "The Battle", she sensed deception and danger from a Ferengi she had seen on the main viewer. Which may mean the Ferengi did not have their defenses up; that the Ferengi in question was much more agitated than the ones in the earlier episode; or that sensing was only possible at this closer range, without distractions, and/or with the reinforcing effects of the visual communications. Indeed, Betazoid sensing may be visually based to a great extent in every occasion... It's not as if Lwaxana Troi really did much telepathy with people she couldn't see face to face, either.

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Old December 11 2012, 02:06 AM   #13
Vanyel
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

Except Lwaxana did a lot of telepathic communication with Deanna in Ménage à Troi. From one part of the ship to the other. Why she didn't just telepathically tell her daughter her plan instead of Deanna having to figure out what ruse she was playing on the Damon I guess is a plot hole.
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Old December 17 2012, 06:40 AM   #14
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

It's possible that Deanna honed her abilities, so that by the time of Nemesis she was more skilled.
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Old December 17 2012, 10:38 AM   #15
Timo
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Re: Deanna and cloaked ships

Or then she couldn't have achieved what she did without the telepathically skilled Viceroy as her target.

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